The Art of Faux Pas #10 - René Alejandro Huari Mateus

Today we are chatting with René Alejandro Huari Mateus. 
René is a dance artist from Colombia, she studied chemistry before discovering dance and the power of movement rolling down her spine one day. Encounters brought her to Germany where she trained At the Folkwang School in Essen - before dancing as a guest dancer for Pina Bausch. She then worked as a full time dancer of the the Staatsatheater Kassel, for 3 seasons, she also worked amongst others, with Tino Sehgal during Documenta13. 

René has always been interested in creating, she (and I quote) 'choreographs dances that celebrate the more-than-human, pursuing a naïve stubbornness: to defy the windmills of institutionalized discrimination, which in Germany occasionally allows some dances to be choreographed by some non-Germans.'

René is a gift in my life, I will always remember the joy I felt when we bumped into each other in an elevator. This meant the audition we both attended, was about to offer 2 years of incredible friendship and artistic partnership. René is a dear friend and a wonderful artist and thinker I feel connected to - someone with an ultra creative mind and a fascinating analytical eye. She thinks outside the box and outside the box thats outside the box. You will laugh at her stories, and think through her words.. I hope you’ll enjoy this chat as much as I did!

Transcript

The Art of Faux Pas #10 - René Alejandro Huari Mateus

Today we are chatting with René Alejandro Huari Mateus. 
René is a dance artist from Colombia, she studied chemistry before discovering dance and the power of movement rolling down her spine one day. Encounters brought her to Germany where she trained At the Folkwang School in Essen - before dancing as a guest dancer for Pina Bausch. She then worked as a full time dancer of the the Staatsatheater Kassel, for 3 seasons, she also worked amongst others, with Tino Sehgal during Documenta13. 

René has always been interested in creating, she (and I quote) 'choreographs dances that celebrate the more-than-human, pursuing a naïve stubbornness: to defy the windmills of institutionalized discrimination, which in Germany occasionally allows some dances to be choreographed by some non-Germans.'

René is a gift in my life, I will always remember the joy I felt when we bumped into each other in an elevator. This meant the audition we both attended, was about to offer 2 years of incredible friendship and artistic partnership. René is a dear friend and a wonderful artist and thinker I feel connected to - someone with an ultra creative mind and a fascinating analytical eye. She thinks outside the box and outside the box thats outside the box. You will laugh at her stories, and think through her words.. I hope you’ll enjoy this chat as much as I did!

Léa: Hello, René. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm really, really, really excited to be chatting with you. Um, I think let's start with a little introduction. Give us your name, your age and what you do. 

René: Hello, dear Léa. I'm so glad to see you again in the frame of an interview. And yeah, let's go for it.
I should start saying that, um, for me, it was, in a way, uh, I feel like I never have spoken about myself in the way that I supposedly will speak to you. And then I was already thinking about myself and I was thinking already like, I Okay. Uh, maybe I will, uh, ask back some questions, um, in order to chat with Léa, but let's see how, uh, how the interview is going to be.
And if I can dig into my life, I am [00:01:00] René. Uh, I was born in a small town in Columbia many, many years ago, but I like to say that I am a always quinceañera. You know what is quinceañera? 

Léa: Fifteen, no? 

René: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Quinceañera is this um, celebration, I don't know if it started in Mexico, but they did it very famously, when there is this little girl turns fifteen, they kind of like, they made a change between being a girl and being a woman, and uh, they come with this kind of like, clothes. It's normally pink and beautiful, um, and there is a whole celebration where the whole town is going in. Then there are like 50 boys and 50 girls who are dancing with her and everything. So eternally teenager, let's say that's my age and, [00:02:00] um, I do, uh, I work in the field of choreography, dance and performance. And I am living in Germany. 
Léa: Nice. Do you recall what's your first memory of dance? 
René: In my family, we dance a lot when was like, uh, Christmas time. There was the celebrations and we were, um, we were putting all the time, the same kind of music because in, uh, in, in Columbia, we listen to the same kind of music, every kind of like 24th of December. And I remember pretty much that there was this moment where we were all dancing and that was a practice somehow, like every every Christmas time that I have a lot of in present. 
Nevertheless, I also remember the first dance class, which was for me like a very enlightening [00:03:00] moment. And that was many years later when I was in the university and I inscribed myself to make a tango lesson. Um, but my friend, because these lessons should be by two.
And my friend didn't appear. And, and there I wanted to like inscribe to something, to do something with my body. I was very upset with, with what I was doing. And, and they teach, and the person told me like, if I would like to do something else, and I say, okay, what else is there? Because obviously I couldn't do tango because there was no partner there at the moment of description. So I inscribed myself to contemporary dance and I didn't know even what was it. And I appear with my chemist, uh, I don't know how to call it in English. The suit, you know, this white suit, you know, the laboratory suit. I appear there. Funny thing. And [00:04:00] yeah, and I, I remember the first exercise was about releasing, breathing in, breathing out, making some movements with the head. And then slowly try to think that the, that you go down by, um, leaving the, leaving the legs as they are. You were rolling down the verterbra, very slow, slow, slow, slow, slowly. I remember the first time that I did this, I couldn't go there. I was really like stuck, you know, like stuck very near to me and I see around and everybody was already like, you know, like relaxing.
And I was completely stuck. 
And that was the first time where I realized that my body was me. Before that moment, I think I was 17 or something. Before that moment, I was like, I remember that my body was carrying myself, like I didn't have any relationship with it. And in that specific exercise [00:05:00] that maybe, yeah, I don't know if it's dancing or the preparation for dancing, it was really for me, like it came really like enlightenment, you know, like this cliche moment where suddenly you see like this, uh, this light bulb inside of your head like doing like this.
And that was like there in the first. Um, institutionalized dance is a class. 

Léa: And did you then start a professional training? Like, how did you then, how did you then train? 

René: Um, there in Colombia, there, there is, um, a university for dance, which I was not. And, uh, and there also, there is like different institutions. There are also one that is related, or there was at the time, I don't know if it exists, but there was one institution that is called Colegio del Cuerpo, which was, that was made by one [00:06:00] person, I think he was French and he came to Colombia and he started in Cartagena Institution and the dancers became very famous.
And that was kind of like a parallel institution for dance. But where I was, it was La Universidad Nacional de Colombia and I was studying chemistry. And there, there they have somehow from the students, we, in the, in the university, we didn't have any program of dance, but the students themselves, they create a kind of like a company and there's this kind of like classes, which people do, you know, like extracurricular, right?
And there is where I started to dance, like where I, as I told you, I, I inscribed myself to this contemporary dance. And they were pretty much, um, you know, influenced by, in Venezuela, there was a famous dance school where a lot of dancers were coming there and they were also teaching us. They were influenced by that school and by release.
They were [00:07:00] also, um, teachers from New York were coming. My teachers were also like choreographing and dancing and they didn't make, uh, Danza Comun, the name of the company is also Danza Comun, and they still exist, maybe different, came out of, of that, um, of that place and it's still coming. It's amazing. But then it was always like, you know, like it was a little bit beside, but this is always taking more and more and more time to you. You know, I started with one time a week for two hours, then three times a week for two hours, you know, and afterwards I was almost there the whole time, almost sleeping there and living is also dance.
Yeah. Life is not just, you know, like going to that, but it's all about this community, which is there sharing with each other, having body contact. You know, I come from a very [00:08:00] Catholic, very extreme Catholic family. Körperkontakt, they say in German, how they say body contact and all of this, this is not existing at all, you know, and suddenly you have this whole people who are taking care of, ‘how is, how did you sleep? How are your shoulders today?’ You know, let's do this, let's sleep together and all of these. And yeah, it's really like. Changed my, also my perception of life, of myself, on what is to be with others. And that's somehow the starting point for some years. And then after my, um, like five years later, I, yeah, I wanted to, to give myself to dance and I wanted to travel.
And I met Um, an angel who came to dance with, with us, uh, in, in the company where I was. And she told me about a dance school in Germany where, uh, she was not still not being taken, but she was doing this au pair, uh, [00:09:00] au pair, you know, these persons who take care of children's. She was doing that in Germany.
And besides that, she was, like, going to this dance school. And I was like, so interesting. It felt like, you know, at that time in Colombia, it was 2003, 2002. Still, the possibility of going out was not that easy one. Now we have, for example, in Colombia, we have, um, visa for three months. Um, at that time also, I didn't know at all foreigners, like not at all, you know, so many years and know any foreigners.
So the idea of going abroad for me was impossible, at least in the spheres where I was moving. But she portrayed it to me as such an easy step, you know, just do this, this, and this, and you will have this application, uh, this, uh, invitation, and they, and she told me it, for sure they will take you. Um, and I believed her, Natalia, Natalia Mora. Oh my God. Now I'm getting the names [00:10:00] away. Natalia, thank you so much. If you hear that. Um, and then she just told me this and I just like, you know, like I made, uh, I made this tape and I came here and then I started in Essen to do this dance education in the Folkwang Hochschule is the name, in Essen Werden. Yeah, and I did, there is where I did my dance education. 

Léa: When did you understand that dance could be a career? Did you know that from an early age or is that something you discovered when you discovered I don't know, contemporary dance classes and this community you just, you, you met? 

René: In Colombia, there is this thing that is El Ballet de Sonia Osorio. And then there is this kind of intersection between a ballet and folklore, you know?This is so funny because, [00:11:00] um, of course it's colonialism 2. 0. and it's auto colonialism, you know, because there's a lot of people just trying to change this kind of like expressions of like intrinsic expressions of us and our communities and our, um, all our history into ballet. And, uh, and they were famous, they were moving around there and there.
But at that time, I remember that, and probably it's something that I maybe still have, and I don't know, many people have, I think, is this very cliche image of a dancer who is, somebody that an early age starts to, you know, to be in this dance training, which is very hard. Some people who are like basically, there are some, I don't know, some certain obsession with the body, you know?
And, uh, And I remember I, like, at least I knew that there was this, at [00:12:00] least I knew that there was this kind of, like, profession. But I also remember that this profession was, at least in the picture that I have, it was very related to being subordinated by someone, you know? And, um, yeah, from my character or my education or the way my parents told me how life to be, would be.
I thought that was never a part of my life, you know, like if I would like to do art, it will be not something where I would like to say where everybody was telling me, but I know slowly, slowly, I started to understand how was this other way of dancing or dancing with others. And there it was easy for me, but yeah, I think more the profession.
It was, of course, when you start to study and then you start to realize, ah, Your teachers were also dancers. Ah, these people are also dancing. And also the professionalization of dance. Of course, there is in Colombia a lot, but I am not so familiar to it. But here [00:13:00] in Germany, of course, while, while you study in a school, then you start to understand how is all the system of dancing, like dancing moves.
For going to theater, dancing, for going to companies, and then maybe get more materialized. But yeah, just to answer maybe short is I think through through the school, right? Into all of these people who are maybe not dancers, but then they come therapies that they may be, they become teachers. Uh, they do this kind of other job that are also related to the body.
And then you start to see that, Okay, you study dance and that can be the way to put you to do something else. And that's why maybe it's good to study dance. But yeah, before that, it feels very pyramic. Right? 

Léa: It’s like, yeah, pyramidal. Yeah, I see what you mean. 

René: Yes. Like very, like, you know, that it will be…

Léa: Pyramidal.

René:[00:14:00] Exactly. Pyramidal. Hundreds will start and three will finish to dance. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the reality also a little bit, but, um, but there is other ways, right? And those ways, you know. Are you able to articulate today why dance? I mean, dance, dance escapes. All the, um, I think dance escapes in a way, in the very intrinsical way, capitalism.
Dance is always dancing in between. Dancing is always dancing with others. Dancing, dance is also something that is kind of like, uh, that what maybe the moment is. Of course, It's also like a metaphor for so many things and it has been being used also in, I think, [00:15:00] capitalized, but the moving body just for pleasure is like, is something that is, it has been since the times that we know that we are humans. And yeah, it's a practice that I, I think, um, it's a practice. I think that it reconnects to the sense of what we are. And I think dance for me also dance in just my very case dance, it's therapeutical. Dance helped me somehow to, to be less anxious, I think.
And to maybe like be less egocentric and to focus on something without really like intending on focusing, you know. I think in my head, in my head going like, as in right now in the interview, going five thoughts at the same time, you know, I think about like, okay, I, what did I say? What I am going to say?
What is still I need to say? [00:16:00] Eh, how is your relationship? But when you dance somehow, at least for me, which is also not that easy task to dance or to put me in the flow. But when I feel it, I have the feeling that it's like just this thing. I don't know what is it, but yeah, it is. Yeah, it's liberating me somehow.

Léa: When you finished your school in Essen, um, who did you work with afterwards? I, you're, you're making your own work as well. Um, but I know you worked with some companies. 

René: When I finished school, then I started like a, a program where I was like, kind of like, um, I don't know, it, it, it was, it was a beautiful gesture anyway. It's a gesture that they give like somehow like post graduation studies on dance and they give it to some people, um, in the school and sometimes it's also helping somehow for visa issues. [00:17:00] Um, but also somehow like trying to connect with the people of the area or the teachers who also produce their work or the company that they were kind of like engaged at or with, which is the Pina Bausch company.
So I was dancing there like a guest dancer for a, for one of their pieces. And I was also working as a guest dancer for Fawa Wulf, which is a choreographer, which in Düsseldorf, sorry. Then I did some pieces with, uh, one piece with Marsh, Ishkared, Malueldo, Jean, I forgot his name. They were like, how do you say, former dancers of Pina Bausch, but they were also doing their things in Wuppertal.
And then, I also very soon realized that this this hierarchical thing that was the school that was exactly the same in the area where I was [00:18:00] coming. And somehow this kind of etiquette of being in that school somehow also didn't help so much, you know, like I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to this way of thinking of dance.
And also like, maybe the organization of them that I didn't like, and maybe the aesthetics also. To the same thing, you know, and I also see it so much that it was like repetition of the repetition of the repetition of something that was also like not there anymore. So I was like, okay, let's go somewhere else.
But this somewhere else that maybe where I was coming from also, because in Colombia was completely different at that, at that time, at the time when I was there, this somewhere else, I also didn't know. I was like, In the right words, I was brainwashed, you know, I was brainwashed by the institution where I learned to dance.
So I started to search for a dance theater. And they teach us in this school that. You will be a dancer when you are a dancer of a, uh, [00:19:00] Staatsteater and this, um, yeah, the narrative, I believe it completely myself. And then, uh, and yeah, and I was doing auditions for different Staatsteater. Some of them were also like, were choreographers from the area, but this is where I really didn't want to go.
And then there was also one choreographer who was coming and, um, yeah. It was known that he was taking dancer also from the school that I was. I did this audition that, uh, where I met also a very good friend of mine, Léa Tirabasso.

Léa: Oh, hello. 

René: Now we're, our paths crisscross. And, um. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, there is a lot to say about this audition because it was also like huge and long and many [00:20:00] people were coming there and some of the people they didn't know, uh, they never saw the work of the artists, most of them, but they knew the audition. So it is a machinery, you know, this machinery of dance and auditions, it's always like creating more and more expectations for a lot of people, you know, I don't know.

Léa: How long did you stay in Kassel for? 

René: I stay Three years, I think? Yeah, three years. You stayed two, right? 

Léa: Yes

René: So one year more, I think. One year was spectacular, you know, just knowing the system and the things that we did was great. Um, our choreographic experiments also, uh, because at the time also, I was already, I mean, when I started to dance also in Colombia, one month later, I was already like doing a choreography.
So it was great. It was something that was always moving to me, so I was doing also like this, as yourself also. We were already trying, as dancers, trying [00:21:00] to find a way how to also express ourselves, although in the theater was really not that easy, which is also crazy, that this happened, this kind of things.
But that's the system that is in, is not all, it was not always because it, but it's everywhere somehow. The machine that is there for, to do what you need to do is to work as a dancer. And, um, and then the first year, so was great. The second year was also good. We did our things also like, you know, like dancing in musicals.
This year, I don't know, but for me, it's one of my biggest, the biggest thing that I'm so, um, Uh, grateful to be in, uh, to dance 32 times. The you remember, or the operetta at first. You remember ? 

Léa: Yes, I do. I loved it. 

René: I loved it too. You know, the other thing that we were working, maybe not so much, but the musicals and the operas and all of this. [00:22:00] Yeah. It's amazing. It's so funny. Yeah, we did a lot of that. It was, that was great. You know, this kind of like really feel this repetition in these costumes and this make up and everything. That was great. And then the third year I was already like, okay, I will really search for something else because I'm, if I stay at four year, I will start to become really, you know, this also very typical figure that you see in the theater, these people who are really angry and telling you what to do and being a little bit bitch about everything. And I was like, Oh my God, I like to stay like in a good energy. And then the first two years were good. And I was raising myself how this energy was like transforming somehow. Also those kind of system where you are like, okay, the next piece is about the city at night and this is the theater and this is, you know, like the changes that we, [00:23:00] that I experimented during these three years in the sense that I was changing that were very like in the surface somehow, like they were not really like meaningful questions on doing art, but you know, it's the system that obliges you to do this kind of pieces with this kind of lens in this kind of a space for this kind of audiences. 
No, I felt like it was not really like anymore what I wanted to do. So I, uh, I moved out also because that was also something that it was. It was a nice, um, it was a nice surprise. I did an audition for Documenta 12 or 13, I don't remember very good.
With our, also our friend Maasa, kind of, we went there for an audition, and then we were auditioning for a person who I didn't know. It's so crazy, like all of, when I see, like, my dance career, I also, like, I was really brought by opportunities, you know, [00:24:00] like I, unfortunately, I am never like the one who was really like into like, you know, trying to be maybe now a little bit more checking people in some studies, but I was just doing the audition because it was like kind of Documenta.
You remember living in Kassel like a good word that people say is Documenta and then you feel like. Hey, there is some good money. And then to get there anyway, we'll be somehow in Pausa. So cool. So I didn't, then I did audition for Tino Segal and then Tino Segal also part of his work, I think is, um, to take people from the areas where he's, uh, somehow performing. So that was to help us. And we were, we were taken and, uh, yeah, and I was dancing there and I also met, there I also met also different way of like thinking choreography and thinking dance, also maybe this relationship that I didn't know so much about visual arts and dance, or dancing like in museums or dancing in this kind of like, in these venues where maybe dance and choreography doesn't appear to be any more theatrical, you know, and, [00:25:00] um, and that also was something that I learned like very fast.
And I was like, okay, uh, seems that I want to do more like this kind of things. And, and then I, I started my master, so I, I left Giessen to start a Master in performance and choreography in Giessen. 

Léa: What would you say is your best memory on stage either, or both as a dancer? And or as a weakness of your own work?

René: Um, that's a beautiful question. I mean, I can recall, recall, you see, I can again say the moment when we're in the musicals, not each other, you know. I remember with you, like, you know, you remember this moment where we started to learn also the music, right? And then we were like already like seeing it together in this [00:26:00] funny costumes, you know, I think, I think it's really like connected me this feeling of like, um, yeah, this very childhood. 
You know, like what dance is, or what a theater is, you know, this kind of like the backstage and the front stage and the changing paths and all of this. I, I, I think they were so funny. I mean, what I really, what I really think, and we do have that, you know, that most of our colleagues, they were really like, they didn't like to do that.

Léa: I do remember and we're just like, well, this is amazing. And I'm glad that we, we really enjoy this moment on the spot. 

René: Yeah. On the spot. Right. Yeah. And I think exactly that's the thing that I think just being on the stage was for me. I, I remember also the first time [00:27:00] of being in a huge stage and I got lost, I didn't know where front and back was.
And yeah, I also can recall this as a very beautiful moment of like being lost on the stage and. And then the one of the last ones, I would say it's in a, in a work of a friend, which is called Carolina Kreutzberg. And, um, she did a piece that is called, um, Woman with the Stones. And, um, and there, there, she posed the question when nature, if nature could drag, maybe if nature could drag us a human, how this, how this thing will be.
And then we, we are having like very nice costumes and, and we are doing like very crazy things. And, uh, yeah, I remember we did like, uh, a small somehow version of salsa [00:28:00] between three persons on the stage and we are like commenting a text and I really perform and in that moment I really like I was there performing for her which is he's a very good friend of mine and I'm also performing with my friends on the stage and you know like just kind of like representing our friendship and It was, it is a beautiful thing to do there.
So I, I remember that in, and for me, like from my own work, you know, when I also like, it was part also though, it was part of, um, Of this ideology that I learned in the, in the dance school that I did, that it was, uh, in order to become a choreographer, you also need to do competitions. You know, like what now it's like for me.
So, uh, it is so funny. It is so funny to think that why, you know, like, and there is no sense, but that was what I got, you know, like very naive also [00:29:00] for me. And then, uh, I did couple of them , you know, in different countries. Uh, uh, and one of them I also went with Mazda, uh, with our friend Maasa, uh, to Serbia, which was a beautiful country.
And I think I can also recon that very, that very early moment to, you know, to. Maybe to get some of the prices, and then suddenly you travel with your own work in another, in another place. In a piece that was a palindrome, knee solo sign and, uh, knee solo sign. And, um, yeah, and then just to see your good friends somewhere else, you know, performing this.
It was a beautiful moment. And from the last ones, uh, Yeah, there is a piece that we are going to perform. Also, like, uh, it's a piece that I made together with my friend, Karine Kreuzberg. [00:30:00] And it's a, um, it's a work that we are going to perform soon in Stuttgart again. And it is a science fiction show with, um, made from us and also from people which are like more from 65 to 85 years old.
And some of them are like non, non professionals. And somehow to see them like doing like science fiction and to playing around it felt so good, you know, I really enjoyed to, yeah, to see, yeah, the performative power of like, Performing and dancing and doing theater from people who are never like contact with the other or, oh my God, this is like, so great.
I mean, I, I kind of like see myself again when I, you know, when I started to dance also and how that change and to see that small moment, even if they are not not going to, you know, be in the theater forever. But it changes, has this such a powerful moment, you know, and [00:31:00] you see there and then you think that.
I mean, after so many rehearsals saying, don't do this, do that, do whatever you want or be more free. I don't know. Whatever. But after seeing them on the stage doing this, Oh, it's crazy. It's really, it's really touching. 

Léa: What’s your worst memory on stage? 

René: Yes, I have a very good one. I have a very good one. I have a one that I will never forget. It traumatized me for my whole life.
And it's, uh, I broke my nose in the general rehearsal of, uh, Sacré du Printemps. And this is like, it is crazy because I went like three or four years just like trying to get into like this, this place where I could dance in the corner very behind, you know, and in the beginning I didn't pass [00:32:00] it is then the second year.
I could just watch the fourth year. I would just come in to her, you know, I, my God, like a huge, uh, you know, uh, a huge, um, A huge drama. Um, there, and suddenly, suddenly after rehearsing up, like from forwards to backwards, backwards to forwards, slower, faster, everything possible. Suddenly, they say, yeah, you can do the, the show.
And it was in Dusseldorf, in this opera house, something like this. I think it was really after five years of trying, maybe more. And then we, you know, there are like things that we rehearse like millions of times and things that they maybe didn't, we never rehearse. So I never felt what was to do that specific part, although six years of fucking rehearsing everything, but I didn't rehearse this part.
And, um, [00:33:00] there is the chaos part. And of course, maybe there is no You know, you don't rehearse this because you just running around and wandering, you know, and some holiday and then you need to run into different moments, you know, in into different 

Léa: Corners 

René: Corners, exactly. And uh, so I remember like the music come this, the moment come, I was there completely excited.
You know, maybe also like too much excited. I dunno. I. I really don't want to put it on myself because you know, it was the, what they say to me, but I think it was, it is a mix on everything, you know, like the Truman show. I feel like in the Truman show there, you know, I was, I was running everywhere. And then suddenly without good things.
This friend of mine, uh, also from Colombia, she was also like there, but she was dancing many, many years ago, a very talented dancer that now, right now, I also don't remember her name. And then I, you know, like her, [00:34:00] yeah, her, how do you say, her forehead in my nose. And I feel this thing and I continue because you still need to run until the music go to the stop or like the, you know, like the.
The musical part is changed and then you are there in the corner and then, uh, in that, in that part, like I need to be still, and I am surrounded by a lot of men, 12, 13, all there with this dick power, completely like, uh, you know. Completely like, uh, you know, like, uh, standing and, you know, like really strong and don't doing anything.
Giving the back to the audience. That's very important. And in a corner in the right, in the right part of the stage, like the right behind of the stage. And then the, the, the, the beautiful female dancers are doing this very slow dance where they are like [00:35:00] slowly, you know, like, um, discovering somehow this red, this red dress.
And then I am like, okay, I am, of course not in the front because my, um, I am behind in the behind by you. So I could use a little bit like, uh, go and, uh, put my hands slowly up. And I know I am like, um, I think I am like, I'm not saying anything, you know, I am like, so. I, I say a little bit loud, , I think I, I feel something in my nose.
I broke it or something like this. And then nobody is saying anything, you know, and the other guys said, I cannot say fucking anything. And I am like, um. Okay and then I a little bit like curve my my head into down and I see how my belly is like with blood Fuck I'm bleeding I'm bleeding I'm bleeding and then uh also a good friend of mine at the time but also [00:36:00] he told me like uh just shut up and then I go very slowly with my hand you know into my nose and I check my nose with my fingers And I see how like the whole fucking lower part of the nose is like completely shifted.
And I'm like, fuck. And I say like, a little bit louder. I broke my nose. I broke my nose. It's there, you know? And I'm like, and then they, uh, one of these, uh, Pina dancers, famous one, tell me like, um, you know, just go out, just go out. But you know, like in this kind of thing, it's like, You failed, you know, you fail, you fail.
So go out and shut up. And I, I see this again, this, this, I see a one week before, you know, like everything, everywhere, all at once, you know, I see in that moment, everything that happened to [00:37:00] me. And I'm like, yeah. Fuck. It is also the general fucking rehearsal, even the performance. And I'm like, I can't, I can't go out. I can't. I need to...

Léa: You didn't? So you stayed on stage? 

René: And then listen, because it's crazy. I, I'm like, okay. If I go, if I say no, I will never, they will never ask me again. You know, that was the moment, that was the moment after so many promises. So I take my fucking hand again back to my nose. And fucking correct the nose, you know, moment.

Léa: Oh my god. That must have been so painful. 

René: At the moment, I don't know. 

Léa: Adrenaline

René: Yeah. Adrenalino, I don't know, it just hit like, you know, like this. I correct [00:38:00] this and continue dancing. And then after they have, we have, after that moment, we still have those leaves where, uh, where I needed to get somebody in my shoulders in a huge jam and everything. But I'll be like, moving a little bit away with those, but everything went good. I guess I was half dancing, half panicking, but maybe it's that good, was good for the piece. I don't know. And then that was the I remember then after it's everything's what happened. How are you? And I'm like, don't say anything. Don't say anything. I'm like, yeah, everything's good. Don't worry. It's good. It's good. Um, and then I even remember the time was still like, uh, Pina was still alive, you know? And then what she was coming to say hello to everyone when they dance for the first time and all of this and to kiss. Sometimes I didn't have any connection to her. You know, it was really like, she just came like soft. That what I think was she was also sick. So [00:39:00] she was coming also like, you know, just very little and saying, just thank you, you know, and then kissing, you know, this very ritualistic thing.
And then she tell me, thank you. And of course I am like this and, and I am like, fuck that in three days, I need to come back here and, uh, uh, I need to check. So I, I shut my mouth up, uh, took my things. I asked my very good friends, uh, Monse Cardo and Blanca Noguerol to help me to go to the hospital in Dusseldorf.
So I went to the hospital and the doctor say, yeah, it's broken. And you put it in the place, but you put it a little bit like in the way of the, in the horizontal way is good. But in the vertical, I mean, in the X, in the X axis is good, but the Y axis, or maybe in the Z axis is a little bit shifted. So I needed to put it there.[00:40:00] 
And then after you cannot move, and then I'm like, uh, fuck, but I need to dance in three days. And then the director said, Hmm, that's not so good. And, you know, the crazy me at that time, you know, I was like, okay. I will dance and then I come like in five days after I dance to you and to do the small operation.
It was just a small intervention when they put it in the right way. So I needed also to have somehow the, the, um, anestesia and everything, but I leave it for afterwards. And then the funny thing is that I came back to rehearsals the next day, or the, I think that was Saturday. And then Saturday we have post, and then Monday we need to come back.
to rehearse and then maybe the performance was Wednesday or something like this. And I remember like Monday, Tuesday, I had like circles of like blue, you know, like, like a butterfly, you know? Yeah. And I'm like, everything is fine. Everything is fine. Oh, crazy. Yeah, this I remember. It [00:41:00] was horrible, but also, I can make now a whole comedy show about it.

Léa: You should! 

René: Yeah! 

Léa: A faux pas is a socially embarrassing action or mistake. What's your definition of failure and has it changed over time? 

René: I tend to move more and more to, to maybe this, I think maybe it can be very cliche wise, but I really try to accept it, you know, like this kind of like things that happen in life as, uh, something that brought me, yeah, that brought me to somewhere else or to that shift somehow my attention, that shift my gaze, that a little bit, this is terrible, my position.
That, uh, in a space and time put me somewhere else in another attention with another maybe, yeah, economies, uh, that queer me, but you know, like, this is [00:42:00] thing that I really like, really enjoy and I maybe make clear to the others also when they are in this space. moments, um, of reorganization or reconfiguration, but of course there is, um, of course it's easy to say, but sometimes it's difficult to somehow engage and to, to embody it somehow.
Yeah, it has been changing because it's a lot of acceptance somehow, and it's also a lot of like, also understanding. It's not just acceptance, it's also saying like, okay, at that time that felt a little bit like something that it was wrong or a failure, but exactly that thing brought me to this or to that, to that, and, uh, I don't know, it's, This beautiful, you know, moments.
Also, we see that somehow in the night, nightlife, when suddenly you feel like, ah, maybe I will just go there. Maybe I will just do there and suddenly another door is opening. You are like, funny. We that will never [00:43:00] happen if I will never do this. So somehow it's always like in a, how do you call it when you see it like retrospective, right?
Yeah. And then of course, with the years, this, you have more and more retrospective. You can like realize more and more what the real meaning somehow of a failure could be. Yeah. But at the moment when they happen somehow, it's much more difficult to, yeah. Yeah. To be faithful to somehow that. And what was the second question you said that?

Léa: If it has changed with time, so. Yeah. What's your definition of success? And has it changed as well with time? 

René: Yeah, I think it has changed a lot. And I have the feeling that the values, yeah, the values that I have from what is to, what, what is to be success, it has been changed so much. Like for me, doing art or being an artist was really not [00:44:00] something that I expect when I was child.
I wanted to be a scientist. And the be real successful for me was to, I don't know, to cure AIDS or something like this, you know? 

Léa: Um, yeah, but it's funny cause I thought you said to curate. 

René: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From cure AIDS to curate. No, yeah, to do not, you know, a vacuum, you know, this, this kind of thing that was kind of like my, uh, yeah, what I really wanted to do.
And then I realized that is like, it is not a singular thing. It's not that, you know, these, these people who appear in history, they appear also as a singular gestures of, uh, Muslim men who do these, you know, this is how history works. But you realize that this is not like this, you know, it requires a lot of collaboration, a lot of [00:45:00] supporting and networking and, you know, uh, friendship and sometimes also manipulations and sometimes also like, you know, um, a lot of like stepping up from some to other people.
And I think that's also what. This kind of success as we know from history is somehow, so that has been changing somehow and in relating to art. Yeah, I, I don't know related to myself so somehow my parents always told me when I was child that to be something that it will be good, it will be to have a house, you know, to own a house.
And I have the feeling that if I still have them, I still will dream something like, ah, it would be so nice to have a house. So I think nowadays my success will be, oh my God, that will be one day where I can own a fucking house. I mean, I mean, it's only for [00:46:00] myself, you know, it also can be with others, but yeah, I would love to, you know, um, I think this is very, Even though I still live in WG and sharing with others and paying my rent, somehow I, I think there is this part of me that I couldn't, I cannot escape to, to that very child memory of like, what's so beautiful to have a house.
So that is the success where I feel now. 

Léa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that's beautiful. A house is a home, right? Any massive creative or artistic fuck up, something you've made, a task you responded to, a project you were a part of, and that was completely, that just completely went wrong. 

René: Oh yeah. Hmm. Three or four years ago, it was the starting of Corona.[00:47:00] And then we start with a friend to ask this question of like, I mean, this question had been maybe also not, also not so long ago. I mean, also we were contemporary somehow to that question that maybe nowadays a little bit, it's still very, very important, but somehow it's also part of like, Yeah. Movement, you know, how art is not sometimes it's called, okay, next question. And then everybody working in this patient at that time, we started very early somehow. And it was the, the, um, the climate crisis and the, and what is the responsibility of arts into the climate crisis and also the way how we work, uh, how we can make it more sustainable.
And we started to work with, um, both plants and the relationship between both plants and humans, which is a very we are relationship is, uh, the pot plants are somehow this part of nature that we accept in our home jet. They are like [00:48:00] pets. Um, so they are very ambivalent. Yeah, we were working and let them choreograph us somehow in a very speculative way.
And we did a long research as the, how say, as the Corona, Corona times were allowing, uh, Romuald, Romuald, uh, Romuald Kresschel is the name of my friend. Very, um, very good friend and very good artist. And he, um, He also managed a lot that we could move somewhere. We were in Poland. We were there in many residency at that time.
Also was very easy somehow. And the question clicks somehow for many others, because it was also, we wanted also to approach in a very funny way, you know, like to be with houseplants and to speak about climate change and also the moment of like Corona was starting. So it felt like, This isolation of home could also somehow speak to the isolation of us, you know, and [00:49:00] we, yeah, we make a team from also friend of us, and we wanted to explore with them, also to give them like, I don't know, artistic freedom to make the music, to make the allies.
A friend of mine also Clara Reiner to perform and, um, and I felt, I don't know, it, it went really like, in the end it was, I think also we got like a performance in Basel, so we, all of us, we went to Basel, the premier needs to be in Basel and we, we went the possibility to. Premier in a festival and we were all of us in Basel, and I think it was everything was there.
I think it's also maybe also our, yeah, our fear that it needs to be good because you know, there are these moments in life where you feel like, okay, if this piece goes good, then maybe we can tour and we, how do you say? Like finally [00:50:00] we can turn there in. Yeah. In kinda 10 theaters, something like, you know, like it's always this kind of like illusion of the festival that suddenly you say like, oh. Fuck, they invite me to this festival so now programmers will come and everything will come and so like this. So it was a lot of pressure and that's also not our friendship like corona times where everything was weird we need to like clean ourselves 300 times before you know touching each other and all of this.
And then, I don't know, three days before the premiere, we also couldn't like, I don't know what I feel. I mean, what I am telling just my perspective, somehow my, maybe my friends will say differently, but I feel like we couldn't even watch each other's eyes. You know, we were all the time like avoiding each other and, uh, Yeah. And I feel like what really I hate from working as a dancer with all of these kind of choreographers that somehow like suck you and I feel like I was doing the same with my friends, you know, [00:51:00] I was really demanding things and maybe like, Giving comments in order to get other things, you know, this kind of thing.
Like we are games, you know? And I was, I felt so wrong, you know? And also like, yeah, it's this stabilized somehow, like my relationship with my friends and now we could come, come over to say, but it took time and also it took like also. It is really brave, you know, and it's something that I also have learned with the years and how to say, okay, there is a fuck up and let's try to heal it.
Because if you don't heal these problems with you have your very good friends, then you continue in this kind of economy of performing, which is like, okay, next project, I will need to go to, I don't know, very, very far away to make this person before. But because of that, I am getting the job, you know, and there is like, My friend, I will never work again, again in the list of known [00:52:00] works again, you know, and I, I am happy that somehow with them, we could come over maybe in different constellations.
And we also had like one more time performance in the next year of it. And it was nice. We also changed a little bit constellation that was good. Yeah. But at that time it really felt like a huge failure.

Léa: What do you think is the space for failure in the creative process? 

René: Yeah, I mean, normally the projects, probably as the one that you are right now also doing is like they have like maximum two months somehow, and most of them, they are almost the same. Maybe for example, the one that I just told you before, it was like huge investigation process, but that was, I don't know, it was just exceptional because Corona, but normally they are like mostly two months before you need to do a little bit research of it, in order to get application in order to get the money for the application. So you [00:53:00] is conceptual world, which the nice thing is, at least in, in the free scene in Germany, where I move is like, okay, you can write the concept. You can, you can work somehow on the constellations on the people you presented.
And after it's not a little bit like in the stats data where you almost feel like the business to be ready, you know, when you, that you also already in the first meeting before even meeting the performers, you already need to tell me like, this is 45 minutes and I need this and this and this and that.
And then you are like, actually the material is not even there. And the free thing is a little bit different. Of course, you need to do a lot of compromises before, and there is a lot of meetings, but there is things that you still can change somehow. Um, so I think these, in this concept phase is kind of like experimenting and then maybe you kind of have like failure.
You can also like, kind of like, I don't know. Um, you can express your [00:54:00] thoughts in that way that maybe they can be failures on it or something like that. And then the moment where you, when you really start to materialize, then the funny thing is that is, I mean, from, from my experience in the last years, And the whole, all of these years working here in Germany that there are these like first two, three weeks where everything is exciting.
Everybody wants to do this and there is new ideas. And then you are like always thinking, almost thinking collage wise where there is this, this, and this, and this. And then sometimes very often you create your own. You create like a huge cloud of materials and then it's about cutting and putting and killing your darlings as we say, no?
And then that starts somehow to like disappear and then somehow somewhere else you start to be a little bit, there are more upset moments because actually you feel like, Oh, but this moment. I really think that this has this potential, [00:55:00] but somehow I don't know. Yeah, we, we always need to, yeah, to compromise somehow from what you feel also the others are, you know, willing to do, um, performers also.
Oh, but maybe also, yeah, something that you also feel safe, you know, I mean, this is also different positions where we all are. Some of them, we still like feeling that we need to. Steps somewhere a little bit higher, I don't know what I mean, then we are like, you should be different, but not that different.
You should be brave, but not that brave, you know, and this is like, yeah, that that moment somehow I think this is when you start like, the failures are not anymore somehow, um, embrace. And then you can do what you can do. Yeah. So I think it's always like this. I mean, it will be nice to really try to really try hard not to do it.[00:56:00] 
I also tried to actually from that problem somehow that I comment you. I also tried to. To work additive somehow to say, okay, let's say yes. And what else? I also try like, I don't know. It's a very weird way of choreographing, but I also try to do things that will be ready also in the first day. So I start to work and have one idea and think that what happens if tomorrow we have the performance, what is there to be done from there to work on because, um, yeah, because I also have the feeling that sometimes we, we invest so much things into what, what could be, but then it's not so really like translatable somehow, like a lot of experimentation is done and I think it's good to create somehow this kind of like relationships because also in performance art is so important, like, you know, this kind of what kind [00:57:00] of energy there is on the stage. And I think this is a very important part, which also allow failures, but somehow maybe. Yeah. Also for relaxing somehow for shortening the working time because the working time is also so, so huge somehow.
Yeah. To try to be more product oriented. I don't know. It's paradoxical, but I don't know. 

Léa: And do you think an artistic product is a success anyway? 

René: Yeah, I mean, sure. Like, in these times right now, um, any kind of artistic engagement is good. I, um, we are in a society which is so much into security and privacy. Uh, into the world, the, uh, the [00:58:00] warfare is somehow they're like people, some countries are making their security, their money, their, uh, all, all of the social, um, I'll say possibilities with the war somewhere else. So we are fucked up. And, um, and I think art, at least art practicing, you know, art practicing is, I think it's totally the door, you know?
Conveyed to, to, yeah, to be against, to, you know, to engage people also like here in Hessen where I live, they, I've, they, uh, When like 20 percent of people were voting for AfD, and you are like, I didn't see any, uh, I have the Wähler in the street and why, where is it, you know? 

Léa: Sorry, is that the right, the right wing?

René: The right wing, yeah. Alternative für Deutschland, yeah. [00:59:00] The, the right wing went 20%, imagine that, it's crazy. And, um, and when you see that it's like, yeah, from 120 are actually near to your home, you know? Yeah. You don't see them. And it feels like, I don't know, then it feels like it's something that is, they keep for themselves and they are secret in the outside.
They tell you hello, but inside they are like, when is this foreigner going to go away on my neighborhood somehow? And I had the feeling that then how can I encounter them and make something like, I say, okay, okay, let's, Yeah, let's, let's meet in the other way, you know, because, uh, I, I guess you have something to tell me.
And I guess I have something that we can exchange and maybe some opinions about myself and why you are against me. Maybe good. This is stabilized, but how there is no way. And I think art is the only way, you know, the only way to make that. So for sure, our practices. [01:00:00] are very important nowadays. 

Léa: Let’s move on to the feedback section that I really like.What's the worst thing someone's ever said to you about your work or about you as a performer? 

René: I’m going to recall, uh, My very, very good friend, if she will listen, I, I wanted to send this, uh, this to her, but now I will not. You know, there is a podcast with her that I listen very often, you know, just to be, uh, you know, beside her and to listen to her because she's such a good friend.
I was also watching, uh, visiting her now in, in the weekend in the start when she had a exhibition and she, uh, And she will be angry when, when I will tell this because actually she's like, I have such a good remembrance, but she was giving me a feedback. [01:01:00] That really hurt me so much. Um, I was in a residency that she, you know, she organized in meat factory, uh, in Prague.
Um, I mean, she did the connection so I could be there thanks to her. It was also very important to me to be there and to be in a residency, which is also like such a great, such a crazy and great way of being, you know. Being three months somewhere there in another city and also, and, uh, meeting other artists, also being in a meat factory was so beautiful, and also visiting my friend's city, Susana Javkova.
And, uh, but then I was in the residency, of course, a little bit lost to be in a residency alone. And then, Uh, I wanted to show her like my results and then when I talk to her about what I wanted to do, she was completely happy and excited and, [01:02:00] and it was cool. And then, and then once we had like a show in, in, uh, as a part of the residency, also maybe a parallel team, because she's a very good organizer.
So she also organized that we went to another city and we did that show and it was also great. And then she went for somehow another work. away of the city and then she came back after like this and it wasn't maybe like last day or like last five days of the residency and then she said okay come and then you show me what you have done until now and I was so excited to show her and I, you know, I was like, It changed the room, uh, like the studio was cool, you know, like somehow having so much time in one space, it's not so, I don't do it so usually to have the space, also the performing space for so long, you know, normally when you work in theaters, you will have just Snow the last weeks and before it's just the rehearsal studio.
But to have the space also there. It was cool. And then one [01:03:00] moment I was playing flute, you know, like, um, , you know this, um, uh, I dunno in English, like block flute. Flute. Like yeah. This one. Do you know? Very small one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Block flu. 

Léa: The one you learn at school? 

René: Exactly. The one you learn at school. And then I was also like rehearsing a lot how to learn this, uh, how to, yeah, how to play this. And there, there was this moment where I'm like, you know, I think I was playing like a very cheesy, uh, Latin American song with it. Because this is, I wanted to play, you know, this kind of like, in a very funny, in a very funny way, like this re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re, re appropriation of, you know, this Latin city because they are, it's kind of like El Condor Pasa, you know, and all of these songs that are very like, and then I was also like playing, uh, [01:04:00] you know, playing the Latin American or something like this I was playing. And, uh, and then I play also Harry Potter. I was learning Harry Potter songs.
And then she said to me after in the feedback, she was like, Oh my God. I mean, it is okay. I don't know what you did, but also like when you play this moment, you know, when you play flute, it needs to be good because flute, when the flute doesn't sound good, it's really not good at all, you know? And I was shocked.
I was like, Oh my God, I was so sad. I stopped playing flute from that moment. You know, like I never played flute again because of that. 

Léa: Oh no, does she know it? 

René: Yeah, she knows it and we always laugh about it and she's like, again, you're going to blow it up, again you're going to blow it up, and now you're blowing it up in a podcast.
Léa: Okay, what's [01:05:00] the best feedback someone's ever said to you about your work? 

René: The best thing it was teacher that I really appreciate, his name is Hena Go. He, um, offered the opportunity for us as students of the institute ing, collaborate with the students from the EMR, which is a master's studies that is connected to the ensemble modern in Frankfort.
And um, and, uh, I had the opportunity to choreograph, uh, um, mostly composition. For Yannis Xenakis, which is a music and architect, and he was thinking about how to make music or to think music more in the architectural way. So we kind of like work with the musicians and also we play them somehow like in different ways of the stage.
So they were kind of [01:06:00] like. We saw the score, um, and together with the friends that I, uh, composed the, I mean, the choreographed the piece. Um, and we saw the score and then we kind of like play them in a different way somehow that they, that the way that they normally they will play the music. With that thing, I think we kind of like show a little bit how the composition somehow like the.
Choreographic arrangement could reveal something out of the score that normally in music is different, very difficult to somehow like to see. And we had like, I think, three or four rehearsals with them. So, um, we kind of like worked on it. work very hard to know, somehow to be very clear, very precise. And of course, as always, it is the first things they were kind of like, I don't know, a little bit against it, you know, how is the all the time, the same story.
[01:07:00] But then I think it was very good. And then they, the teacher came like after some days and he said like, wow, I really learned something from you. It was really good and thank you so much. And you know, he has been working with musicians since the eighties, you know, in a famous pieces and he say, learning from you.
And I was like, oh wow. So . Yeah. I, I couldn't believe it, you know, I wanted just to record it. Yeah. Put the, put it like there me when the, the doubt in me, which is kind of. Every three days is, you know.

Léa: Most inspiring quote or advice you keep close to your heart and might help you keep going. 

René: There is this book from Sara Ahmed which is Queer Phenomenology where she, um, reading Husserl's phenomenology, where Husserl is explaining, somehow he [01:08:00] say, okay, when I create philosophy, I create it in front of my table.
So somehow, the table, the flattering table is giving me my things. So I think the war, because table is looking at me, I am looking at the table. So this relationship may him somehow think about the war. And Sarah Ahmed is saying, yeah, and Husserl never like, uh, watch behind. Like he need, he didn't turn himself, uh, into, uh, backwards.
What he's not seeing because his gaze is in the gaze of the table, in the gaze of the writing is maybe his wife who is cooking. And the domestic labor that is made in order for him to, you know, to sit there and to think about the world, you know, and, um, so in a, in a sense, uh, we have phenomenology is also like creating the gaze, like always watching somehow the things that you may be not are not [01:09:00] watching also to think about, I don't know, uh, In the way that when you orient towards objects, toward things, toward ideologies, you might be somehow forgetting things, and you need to disorient yourself all the time, and the disorientation is something that is accompanying me also, um, as a trans woman, where I'm like finding all the time new ways of defining myself and maybe asking myself a hundred questions about it and being very and somehow insecure and thinking, okay, if I do this, if I do that, if I change in this way, if I transform myself, if I take this, if I take that, like a lot of questions where I like, um, put me somehow very like disoriented and in a way always so insecure.
I've always seen that somehow in as an [01:10:00] issue somehow, but thanks to Sarah in her book, I have the feeling that is always like, ah, but that's where my subjectivity is creating in what does makes me move and, um, and to embrace that as something that is powerful, uh, rather than, yeah, something that I need to be ashamed or escape then.
Somehow that's something that helped me all the time. And I always come back to the book and try to read a little bit parts of there. And yeah, my heart, this idea of being disorientated, always be disorientated. 

Léa: Um, yeah. Would you say it's linked to maybe one of the biggest thing you learned as an artist?

René: Definitely. And yeah, in. Yeah. And again, it's somehow this kind of moments of surprising when you are like, ah, and then we were watching at the, [01:11:00] at the clouds for three hours and laughing a lot about it. And somehow, and then we will never do this. We will never lay down. We will never get lost. We will never be tired. We will, you know, like this kind of thing. So yeah. Somehow, what else did you say about this? Enjoying the musicals? Kassel is like to be just in the moment, right? And yeah, I think this is also this what disorientation keeps, uh, brings you because if you are thinking that you just want to do this and this and this and this kind of art and something like this, then everything seems like stupid to do, right?
But yeah, this is more moments. I think like helps you so much to also to, to rethink somehow. 

Léa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nice. Is there anything you want to add about these topics before we move on to the quickfire questions game? 

René: Oh, [01:12:00] I think because also we, uh, I heard the one of your podcasts and there was a very nice person who spoke about the, um, the, um, the Art of failure by Jack and Halberstein.
How, how is their name? 

Léa: Orrow

René: And, uh, and I, uh, and I remember the story of, uh, the story of, uh, Dori, you know, the fish story that Jack Halperstein is speaking about it in, uh, there is in the film, um, the film Finding Nemo. Halberstam takes this figure and speaks a little bit because this figure is she's forgetting all the time you remember she doesn't know where where she forget all the time because she had this kind of like short memory problem and uh and that in the end because of that, [01:13:00] this property is the property that helps, uh, uh, the file on them to find them, or, you know, just because of this, if she will not have this property, Nemo will never find the, um, the thing, because I think it's one of the last adventures that they need to do.
Just by the fact of forgetting, uh, it is possible somehow that, uh, they arrived there and And her as a being a heroine, you know, is so crazy, so crazy idea. And so, so, so beautiful. So I just wanted to, I brought again this figure of Dori and the failure as something that sometimes we really need in order to succeed, you know, maybe I don't know if success is the word, but I don't know to, yeah, to accomplish.
What we want to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Léa: Are you ready for the quick fire questions? 

René: I'm ready. I'm [01:14:00] ready. And, uh, I will try to, I will try to get them. I would like to answer one of them very fast. And, uh, because most of them, I have the feeling that they can be both, right. 

Léa: But it's not about that. You know, the funny thing is just to shoot us, right. Did I send you the questions? 

René: No, no, no, no. 

Léa: Oh my God. I thought I had like leaked them. Yes, yes, yes. The aim is to reply. But it's interesting because like some people go back to it and they're like, hang on, I might change my answer. So it's also funny to sort of like go back and forth.

René: Okay. Okay. 

Léa: You’re ready… process product or ideas? 

René: I think ideas because ideology is the thing that we really need to transform here. So ideas. We need to go to these ideas. Why there is these ideas here? My God. Have to do something with process, of course. Yes. [01:15:00] 

Léa: Instinct, intuition, or checked facts? 

René: Checked facts also.Yeah, we need to be aware of this. I mean, intuition. Yeah, intuition is always sexy, right? But facts are facts.
Léa: Reflection or impulse? 

René: Reflection. 

Léa: Success or failure? 

René: Failure. 

Léa: Stage or site specific? 

René: Site specific. 

Léa: Art, useless or useful? 

René: Useful. 

Léa: Pilates, yoga or ballet? 

René: There are no one of those. No, I cannot choose. No.

Léa: When creating music on or [01:16:00] off? 

René: I would love to say music on, but it's actually, I always do with music off. 

Léa: If you weren't an artist, what job would you do? 

René: Gardener. 

Léa: Nice. Cultivating things, making things grow. 

René: But at least flowers will be, I will be happy. Maybe not so much food, but flowers, I will love to grow.

Léa: Step on the right or step on the left? 

René: I think before, I mean, if there is no food before on the left, if there is food before on the right, because my standby is the left one. 

Léa: The right step or a mistake? 

René: That's related to the question that you say before about the failures in the creative process. I think there…It will be good to have the, for like a mental health, it will be good to have the, uh, the mistake early and the right [01:17:00] step after, because if it's too much left step, then you are like, 

Léa: Oh, nice. That's it. 

René: That’s it. There is music in the end. 

Léa: Yes. Thank you so much, René. It's just, it's just amazing to listen to your stories and, and yeah, to hear your take on all this. So thank you so much for your time. 

René: Thank you so much to you. And also I wanted to say, if once you want to be interview in your formal interview, please ask me, I will be happy to be in the other side and finally to interview the interviewer. 

Léa: Okay. I'll keep that in mind. Let's say, uh, let's say a fake goodbye and, uh, and then let's catch up.

Bye. 

Léa: Let me stop the thingy.

BONUS / MISTAKE
Hello, René. Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm really happy to be chatting with you. Um, I think it'd be great if we start with a little introduction, give us your name, your age and what you do. Hello, dear Leah. Um, thank you so much for inviting me. Um, It's a honor. And um, I feel like somebody just knocked on my door and we need to start again.
I'm so sorry. Fuck. Sorry. No, no, don't worry. I'm very sorry, I'm very busy with an interview. I don't have time in the last few weeks. But do you need something fast? No, no, [01:32:00] I'm good. I don't know how to write in English. Okay. Okay? Okay. Yeah. Sorry, Lea. No, don't worry. You know, it makes me think of, like, all these crazy projects we had already in Kassel, and I'm just like, here we are, ten years later, doing, like, another.
Okie dokie, because I said René, which is very like American. So Yeah. But should I say René? No. René . I say it French. So how do, how do you want me to say René? René or René? René. I, uh, the second one I think is good. René? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This is perfect. Okay. Okay. My little Spanish accent. Okay. Okay.