The Art of Faux Pas #5 - Seke Chimutengwende

Seke Chimutengwende is a choreographer, performer, movement director and teacher based in London. As a performer, he’s worked with DV8, Lost Dog and Forced Entertainment amongst others. Improvisation is at the centre of Seke’s work.
He has been practicing completely improvised performance, using movement and text, since 2006 and has performed over 70 solo improvisations internationally. 

Together we talked about the need and the luxury of time, the feeling of constantly auditioning as an artist, and enjoyment… I hope you’ll enjoy it as much as I did! 

Transcript

The Art of Faux Pas #5 - Seke Chimutengwende

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Art of Faux Pas. Here, we celebrate the artistic fuck ups, the feelings of failure, the blackouts, the folds, the unfollowed rules, the invaluable learning experiences within the creative process, all this with kindness, amusement, and respect. 

Today we're chatting with Seke Chimutengwende. Seke is a choreographer, performer, movement director, and teacher based in London. As a performer, he's worked with DV8, Lost Dog, and Forced Entertainment amongst others. At the center of Seke's work is improvisation. Together, we talked about the need and the luxury of time, the feeling of constantly auditioning as an artist, and enjoyment.
I hope you'll enjoy this chat as much as I did.

Léa: Hello, Seke. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Seke: Hi. 

Léa: Ok, let's start with an introduction. Can you share with [00:01:00] us your name, your age, and what you do? 

Seke: Yeah I'm Seke Chimuthengwende. I'm 44 and I'm a choreographer and a performer and, uh, I teach improvisation and I also do a bit of movement direction in theater, so that's more or less what I do. 

Léa: Great. What's your first memory of dance? 

Seke: I definitely, I danced a lot when I was a kid, and especially I used to do a lot of performances, uh, for my family and then also for my schools at school as I was performing. but yeah, I guess, uh, very first would be at home yeah, dancing, yeah, for my family. That's my, yeah, performing, I guess. [00:02:00] 

Léa: Yeah. And did you, did you know from an early age that you could make a career in dance? When did you understand that you could? 

Seke: I mean, my mum was a dance teacher, she did other things as well, but she taught dance mainly to adults so I understood that and I, I guess I knew, not very well, but I knew a few professional dancers as I was growing up and I went to see dance, uh, not a lot, but a bit growing up, so I knew about it in that way. 
And also, when I was a kid I was, I went to primary school in Soho in Central London so I was very aware of theatre. And musicals and yeah, [00:03:00] so I, yeah, I, I, I knew about it. I was very into it. I didn't think at all though, that that's what I would do when I was growing up.
So yeah, maybe when I was little, I thought about being maybe a theater director, but I didn't definitely think about dance and, and by the time I was a teenager, I didn't think of it at all as something I would do. 

Léa: So when did you decide to then professionally train? Was it after your A level or was it much later?

Seke: Yeah, I was 20 when I decided to yeah, 19 or 20, I decided to do it and I think yeah, it seemed like a really wild idea, and I think some people were like, what? [00:04:00] Are you sure? and it was also not straightforward because I did also think about studying acting, so I was trying to decide which one to go for and I went for dancing. But yeah, I guess I was, yeah, I was basically 20 when I decided that. 

Lea: And did you do like a BA? 

Seke: Yeah, so first of all, I did a foundation course at Lewisham College, so I did two years there, which was yeah, I guess, like, it's the equivalent of A level, but we just did dance and we did a lot of technique classes, a lot of performing. It was very, uh, disciplined and, and kind of old fashioned in a way. Uh, but it was, what was great is like [00:05:00] pretty much anyone could go. I mean, it was, I think we had to pay a bit, but not, not loads, and you didn't have to have any experience before going. And I was 20 when I went there and did two years there.
And then I went to the place, London Contemporary Dance School, after that and did a BA. 

Léa: Are you able to articulate today why dance, why you chose dance over theatre, or why you chose dance? 

Seke: Yeah, I think quite a few different reasons. I think yeah, I was definitely, I guess, partly I thought, like, being mixed race, I thought, I don't know that I'd get that much work as an actor. I [00:06:00] like, retrospectively, I don't think that's necessarily true, but at the time, I was like, watching films and seeing plays and I was like, well, I don't see many non white people and if, if they are, they're not doing very interesting parts. So it was a little bit that. It was also, I was definitely aware that there were not many men in dance. So I thought, Oh, well, I've got more of a chance which I think is true and still true. so a little, it was a little bit, I guess, strategic.
But I would say more, I think I just, yeah, I like, I think I like the sense with contemporary dance that it's very such a, it's always kind of, I don't think I would have said it like this then, but it's always sort of emergent and trying to [00:07:00] do something that hasn't been done before and, uh, kind of engaging with the unknown. It's also why I like improvising.
So I think that and I guess sort of the abstraction of it, I think those things and also I just really like music, and I feel like, yeah, dancing is a sort of expression of that as well. So I think, yeah, I think it was mainly that, but definitely there was a sort of strategic thought as well.

Léa: And after you completed your training, did you go on and work for other people before starting making your own work? 

Seke: Yeah. So I did. I was, yeah, basically straight away when I graduated, I started doing projects, [00:08:00] as a performer and that's mainly what I did. yeah, from like 2004 till 2011, I was mainly doing that. I did start performing improvisation, improvised performance when I was in like 2006, a couple of years after I graduated, but I didn't start kind of organizing projects or anything. yeah, until like seven years after graduating. 

Léa: What would be your best memory on stage as a dancer?

Seke: Yeah, um. 

Léa: Dancing for someone else's work or as a dancer of your own work? 

Seke: Yeah, um. [00:09:00] Yeah, lots of good ones. I think probably I would say maybe recently I did a show called Plastic Soul which was on at the Yard. It actually doesn't have very much dancing in it, but there is some dancing at the end of the show, and I felt like maybe on the last night I figured out how to do it. 

Léa: After how many nights of performing it?

Seke: Uh, that was, well, we did five shows at the Yard and the fifth one I said, okay, I think I figured this out. and then I have only performed it once since then. But yeah there was also a, I mean, you said one, but I'm going to say two. This is in somebody else's show, [00:10:00] a company called Alias in Geneva and I, yeah, I, that was a difficult project, in general and for me and I didn't feel great in it in general, but there was one section where I felt like this is great. This is like perfect for me. So yeah, quite, quite a lot of good memories, but those are just two that I can think of.

Léa: Do you have like, or what would be one of your best memories of you witnessing your own work? 

Seke: Yeah. yeah, again, quite a few. I mean, I think. Am I allowed to give two again? [00:11:00] 

Léa: Of course, even more if you want. 

Seke: Well, I think the first time I did a show, well, I didn't know what it was called then, but I did a work in progress sharing of a piece that later was called Mr. Lawrence. So that would have been 2011. And I remember just watching that and feeling like, oh, wow, this is so cool. Like, this is something that I've created in collaboration with other artists, but I was just like, wow, this is my sort of vision in front of me. So that was, that was, that was one. And then, yeah. well, this is, this is just going to be the, the last time that I've done this. 
So I've made a piece on some students at the place. In June and July just a couple of months ago. But yeah, watching that and feeling like, oh, this is like exactly the kind of thing that I like and what I kind of wanted it to be. But it also feels really like it's about them and it's come from them and I really like that combination.
It's like I would have, it would have turned out really differently with a different group of people going through the same process. So yeah, really, I really, that's. Yeah, so basically the first and most recent time I'm going to go with. 

Léa: Right. One of my favorite question now. What would be your worst memory? You can have a few. Worst memory on stage as a dancer and what worst memory as a witness of your own work? 

Seke: Um. Yeah, I mean, my worst memory as a, as a [00:13:00] performer, I mean on stage, I guess, I mean probably the sort of, in a way, the most obvious one is I, I was performing with, with an improvisation group. This is probably 2010 and I had a panic attack just before the, the show. And I just didn’t, I think I was just like stressed about a lot of things in my life, but I'd never had one before. So I didn't really know what was going on. I think now also people talk about that kind of thing a lot, whereas then not as much. So I wasn't really sure what was happening. and also I'd felt like fine. I felt a bit tired, maybe, but I wasn't like feeling nervous about the show, but then suddenly I felt like very, very nervous. [00:14:00] And yeah, I had a panic attack and I didn't go on until I, I went on for like a minute towards the end of the show. it was, it was a completely improvised performance that that was kind of okay. But yeah, that was probably the moment where I, yeah, I kind of completely sort of, where I was just like ‘Oh, this is that's in terms of a failure’, I literally failed to perform. 
After then I had like a lot of stage fright for probably a couple of years. and, uh, yeah, although it seems to have completely gone I don't have it at all now, and I didn't really have it before.
I mean, sometimes I would get quite nervous, but that's a bit different to [00:15:00] stage fright. and I pulled out of a project, actually, a big project after that, because I didn't want to be confronted with that. So that's, that's probably my worst memory. I mean, like talking about it now, it doesn't make me feel like, Oh God, that was so bad. But at the time. Yeah. 
And I guess it's in terms of seeing my own work. I think, yeah, I wouldn't say I've got loads of really bad memories, but I would say, quite recently last year, I made a piece with Candoco and when it was performed (it was on for three nights at Lillian Baylis in a mixed bill), there were technical problems [00:16:00] every night with the show.
And that was, that was really, I think also that was just quite, I was quite surprised as well. In the sense I felt like I never got to see it with without those issues and it was sort of out of my control as well like I feel like I've, I've sort of watched my own work and I felt like, okay, that's kind of my responsibility that I didn't think about this element of the structure I didn’t you know, tell the performers something that would have helped, but this was something where I was like, Oh, I can't control this. so yeah. 

Léa: A faux pas [00:17:00] is a socially embarrassing action or mistake. What would be your definition of failure and has it changed with time?

Seke: Yeah, I think, my definition of failure probably has changed. I mean, I feel like, I guess there's sort of something different, you know, there's like sort of public failure where something sort of fails where you sort of feel or you have failed in a kind of public way and then there's like personal something that feels like a failure, you know, to you, but other people don't care or don't know about it. I mean, I feel like,[00:18:00] I think actually the two shows that I did that I feel like, uh, if I did it again, I would do it differently and that, that's not, I didn’t feel that wasn't the kind of humiliating uh, experience because I felt like the shows turned out good, but I feel like I, I think, yeah, basically the two shows that I did at the yard, you were in King Arthur. I feel like they sort of couldn't then be performed again because I made them very specifically for a specific context, and I was very like, uh yeah, I felt very like I let the context determine what I was doing too much. [00:19:00] and I don't, yeah, it's interesting. Again, I don't feel like now, I don't feel like, oh, that's a failure. I don't, I don't feel it. It's sort of emotionally, but I feel like I was a bit like, Oh, I, you know, we put all this energy into this project and now it's quite hard, if not impossible to think about ever doing it again. And I guess for me, yeah, I think for me a failure is about like, when something's not sustainable and in a way, it also comes up, you know, to an extent with everything that I do.
I always feel like, I wish I could do it more or but I feel like with those two, I feel like it was, it wasn't just like, well, it's hard to get funding until projects. I feel like there was something because the shows was so unusual. [00:20:00] Uncategorizable it was quite hard to then sort of move forward.
And I think, um. Yeah, that, that felt like, oh, I missed something. yeah, even if like, actually, if I think of those pieces, I think, oh, I really like them. But yeah, I remember at the time feeling really like, oh, I set something up that then had to stop. yeah. I mean, I guess another, if I can say another example, which sort of maybe related, when I did the Place prize …

Léa: that was ‘Mr. Lawrence’? 

Seke: No, it was called ‘the time travel piece'. It was the piece after Mr. Lawrence. Uh, it was a group piece, mostly the same performers as Mr. Lawrence and King Arthur. [00:21:00] But yeah, I, again, like, I didn't feel like artistically I didn't make a good piece, but the context made it feel like a failure because you were there sort of judged against other pieces. And and also it was, then it was like, oh, well that's never gonna happen again. so yeah. yeah, I think, for me, in terms of like art artistically, the thing that sort of, it's when something feels like it can't sort of, it's not about like sustaining something for the sake of it or just doing loads of shows of something, but when it feels like It needs more time to feel like it's done what it [00:22:00] could do, if you see what I mean. Like some, some works might be brilliant to do once and never again, or, you know, even just to like daydream about or whatever, but I feel like, yeah, I guess a little bit like I was saying with Plastic Soul, I felt like, oh, after five shows, I figured out how to do it.
And then I could never. Do it again. and I felt, I felt a bit like, yeah, maybe not quite to the same degree, but I felt like with King Arthur, it's like, oh, there's a practice here and we're sort of figuring it out and then it stops and yeah, so I think that's, that's been that's been a sort of, uh, yeah, that that's been where, and I felt [00:23:00] that to different degrees with pretty much everything that I do actually. It's like, oh, that's not quite enough time or there's not, I haven't figured out how to deal with it. Although I think I guess I do feel like I'm understanding that more and more. I'm getting better at it. I don't know if that makes, I feel like I'm not sure if I made much sense. 

Léa: It does, it does, it does. 

Seke: I guess what I don't, what I haven't experienced that much, I would say, is stuff that feels like humiliating. I feel like I've made pieces that like, I guess, yeah, maybe a piece like Plastic Soul where, and the piece I did for the Place Prize, where some people love it and some people hate it, but that's kind of different to, to it feeling like, oh, that was so embarrassing, or. I don't, I don't feel like [00:24:00] that's not something that's sort of been a big part of what I do. And I think I also feel like I'm not very easily embarrassed as a performer. so, and as a maker, I guess, I mean, I'm quite interested, I guess, in making work that feels a little bit like on the edge. So I'm kind of interested in, I mean, I guess I could say as well, like I'm kind of interested in playing with failure with things that people are watching are like, wait, is this supposed to be happening? Is this meant to be funny or not? What kind of genre is this? You know, all those sorts of. How long is this going to go on for? Are they just making this up on the [00:25:00] spot? All those sorts of things interest me. So, yeah, I would, would say yeah, in a way, I kind of invite that in as a maker. 

Léa: Same question for success. What's your definition of success and has it changed with time? 

Seke: Yeah. I mean, I think the, the probably yes, definitely. I think I mean, I guess like with my improvisation work, I think I, when I started doing it, I was like, Oh, this is great. I want to like do this loads and perform everywhere. And and then [00:26:00] that was kind of hard to achieve but I've, uh, but now I sort of feel like, well, I guess what I feel is it sort of accumulates over time. It's sort of in, you know, something that feels like, oh, that didn't really do enough of what it was supposed to do. But then like 10 years later, it's like, well, it was, it was part of something bigger. So I think that the things that sort of felt like more frustrating or like I didn't quite get something that I wanted to get, it's like, now I feel like, well, actually it did sort of happen.
It just happened over a long, longer period of time. I think, I mean, I feel like I. I wanted to, I [00:27:00] wanted to perform a sort of kind of work and in a kind of world that I did a little bit in my 20s, I guess with DV8 and Alias and Fab Beast. But I felt like there were things about those experiences that were kind of frustrating in different ways whereas I feel like now I feel like, oh, well, I'm sort of doing like the work that I'm doing with Forced Entertainment. I feel like, okay, this is kind of what I wanted to be doing. Then I'm doing it now. And I don't know if I would have been ready to do it then anyway. I mean, maybe I would, but I feel like I'm bringing something to that work now that I wouldn't have had when I was in my 20s.
And I think, um.[00:28:00] Yeah, I mean, I probably have like in some ways I have, I'd say I have both like lower expectations of what I think could happen, but I'm also like amazed by things that happen that I just never would have conceived of. So I think what changes my perception of success is that I feel like, well, I could imagine anything happening now but I'm not fixated on some very specific thing happening.
That feels quite different to me and it was interesting when we had the first lockdown and, you know, I was like, well, maybe I'll never perform again, or make another show, or I don't know, like, I was really unsure, but I felt like, So, yeah. [00:29:00] I had this feeling of like, Oh, but I've done loads already and that's so cool. And I'm also just interested in loads of other things. So I didn’t, yeah, it was kind of, I did feel like, Oh, there's a kind of balance now in my life that I didn't have when I graduated.. 
And I think maybe the last thing I would say, you know, personally, with success is I feel like something that I experience at the moment is because I do lots of different kinds of jobs and I have different kinds of roles in different places quite different kinds of [00:30:00] contexts and it, I feel like each thing sort of takes the pressure off other things. So I feel like if one thing doesn't go so well, it doesn't really matter as much because then straight away I'm doing a completely different thing. so that, that feels very different when, when I was younger, it would be like one project really intense and then a gap doing nothing and then another project.
And each thing felt like very defining, whereas now it feels like things just move on very quickly and sort of always do different things. I also feel like I mean, what I experienced, for example, with improvising and yeah, I guess it's probably the same with teaching and choreographing and everything, but I feel it very [00:31:00] clearly in that is I feel like I can, I can look back on lots of improvisations that I've done and I feel like, oh, well, they mostly went quite well. So the next one is probably going to go quite well but I feel like that's also something that comes with time.

Léa: What do you think is the space for failure in the creative process? 

Seke: Yeah, I mean, it feels, I guess what it does feel like in a way I feel like the, yeah, depends, depends how I look at it. In a way, I [00:32:00] could say there's not, there's not very much space. I feel like maybe this contradicts what I just said. Uh, and it does in a way, but I feel like from an external point of view, it feels like you're you in, I guess, in relation to maybe institutions specifically, I feel like it does feel like everything needs to succeed.
And if you make a show or do something that doesn't succeed it does, there's a sense, I think that you're constantly sort of auditioning. And maybe in a real sense, we are, if you're, you know, if you're working in the UK system where you constantly need to reapply for funding, even if you have fixed funding, which I [00:33:00] don't, but, you know, even if you know, I was in that position, I would still be needing to kind of constantly justify and, and every either every project or, or whatever, you know, it's like, it's me again.
This is what what who I am, this is why you should fund this and it feels a little bit like you're constantly applying to do the same job. over and over again and I mean, I guess there's such a, I mean, I had, I did Choreodrome at The Place. I had a residency at the place this summer and, you know, it was sort of strange, uh, thinking like, wow, I've been involved here you know, for over 20 years, and I'm applying to do a week's [00:34:00] research for something which yeah, that's not a comment on like individual people, but as a sort of overall structure of things, it's like, there's not, there's, there's not a sense really, uh, in terms of how the system works. That at a certain point, you know, the system then trusts you and says ‘just do whatever you want, it’s fine if some of the things don't turn out great, but we trust you. We like you.’ Like, that's not there. I'm not saying that individual people don't feel that obviously, but on a kind of material level, that's what the, or structural level, that's what, what it is. So I think in that sense in that sense, I'd say there's, there's very little space, it feels like there's very little space for failure.[00:35:00] 

Léa: I’m also very interested in feedback. The way people, not just the way, but what people say. So as a maker, would you be okay sharing what's your, what's the worst thing someone's ever said to you about your work? I love that. That's like one of my favorite questions as well. 

Seke: Oh my God. 

Léa: Usually we remember these.

Seke: Yeah. I mean, I think I don't remember, maybe I've blocked it out. I don't remember exactly what was said. But I did read something on Twitter, this is quite a long time ago, someone that I know, a critic, wrote something about a performance that I did, [00:36:00] and it was, yeah, I have to say it was, it was an unfunded performance, an improvised performance. And yeah, it wasn't terrible, but it was quite dismissive of what I'd done and I remember just, I think I was about to teach, and I remember, uh, seeing that on my phone or my computer, I can't remember, and just feeling like, Oh so that's just the, that's one thing that comes to mind but yeah, I think, I think when yeah, I feel like yeah, the, the worst ways it's either something like that, where it's like it's sort of mediated through an online space like that's quite difficult, especially when it's from [00:37:00] somebody that you know, like it's different if it's like someone you've never heard of, who has no, you know, sort of relevance or whatever, but that and then also just after a performance, when people.. Yeah, I had that a lot with the Place Prize, because, yeah, because it was this sense of like the audience as judge and people would just come up straight away and be like, ah, I just didn't, you know, I think you just didn't go far enough or it was very frustrating because you didn’t… so that was pretty hard. I think that kind of yeah, this kind of immediate, uh, [00:38:00] uh, sort of negative feedback or, and also it's, it feels more negative than it is in those contexts as well. So you're very vulnerable. yeah, I think. 

Léa: like the journalist who tweeted about your work, you said, you know, you know them. Did you then have a conversation with them about it? 

Seke: Oh no, I mean, it's not, not someone I know that well, but I mean, I do know them and I don't think I saw them for a long time after that. Yeah I mean it's a little bit the same as reviews, you know, sort of seeing like negative reviews which, yeah, to be honest, most of, first of all, most of my work has; either not been reviewed at all, or very, you know, very few reviews [00:39:00] and mostly negative. so yeah yeah, I did get a very bad review for Plastic Soul, and it was from like, an established critic, and they were like, this was just incomprehensible and boring. And it was like, yeah, right. But what? 

Léa: Okay, let's go to the, let's get to the best ones. Like, remember, you know, the best thing someone's ever said to you about your work? 

Seke: The best thing anyone's ever said? Yeah, I can give a specific and a general. So I do remember I did a performance again an improv performance in like some kind of underground [00:40:00] venue. and, uh, yes, a choreographer that I know who yeah, I, I'm very inspired by Rosalind Crisp, she's Australian and she was based in France for quite a long time, but she's moved back to Australia and she, yeah, she was like, that was amazing straight after the show. And I felt like, oh, wow, this is like my idol who thinks that I was good… Like, so that, that, that I remember being like, I feel also, I guess like it wasn't just that it was good feedback, it sort of shifted something for me where I was like, oh, actually people who are much more experienced than me and who I really admire might find something to admire in what I do.
 [00:41:00] That kind of flipped something for me, I think and yeah, I mean, I, I feel like I, I definitely take negative criticism more to heart than positive stuff but I would say in general, something that I feel like, Oh, good that's like what I wanted, what I wanted it, what I wanted to happen is when people say stuff like either like, oh, that made me feel like dancing or that made me want to join in or that made me want to make something myself or inspired me to keep going. Those are the sorts of feedbacks that I think, okay, that's good, that's the desired effect of what I'm trying to do. [00:42:00] Yeah, I definitely sort of feel like I don't dwell on positive feedback very much, even if it's like very positive, I kind of forget about it quite quickly. Whereas if somebody says something negative, I kind of like, yeah, I sort of think about it for days and weeks, years, maybe. I mean, I think it also, it like going back to the idea of failure. I think it, I think that can make me feel like something has failed if I receive some negative feedback in whatever form and from whoever even if it's kind of, even if I've slightly misread it or it's not very representative of what most people feel, so yeah, I mean, I'm trying not to indulge that as much [00:43:00] anymore, but yeah. 

Léa: What do you think of the idea that an artistic product is a success anyway? 

Seke: Oh, so like, just making something is a success. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, definitely. I mean, it's, I think it's, it's quite hard to make stuff for lots of reasons. Like it's, it could be, you know, like financially and logistically difficult, it could also be, I think a big thing is, I guess something around confidence and trust. I think that's something that most people have like, Oh, could I really do that? Am I qualified? Am I good enough? You know, whether that's like professionals or people just doing it for fun or [00:44:00] celebrities or whatever.
I feel like everybody has that some sort of relationship to that. I think. So in that sense, yeah, just making something is a success and I think I mean, make also making things that sort of don't work in whatever way is a sort of. Success in the sense that you’ve, you've like explored something and shown something that is, then it's the sort of like research, it's like an experiment. It's like, okay, now we know. Yeah. That doesn't work. I mean, yeah it's not, not quite like that. But you know, I think, I feel like I experienced that all the time in every, every type of thing that I do. So you need to do things that don't work in order to figure out what does work. Yeah. [00:45:00] so yeah. 

Léa: Most inspiring quote or advice you keep close to your heart and that might help, that might help you keep going? 

Seke: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, probably my, my big inspiration is, uh, well, Rosalind Crisp's husband, Andrew Moorish, Australian improviser, I think, yeah, he's always asking students to look for what they enjoy or what all the pleasure in when they're improvising like keep following that, what are you interested in, what's enjoyable on a kind of moment to moment [00:46:00] basis. So like keep going towards that. And yeah, that's probably, I'd say that's probably had the biggest impact on my practice. And yeah, I remember once he was like talking about like the iron discipline of doing that. It's not like, just like giving into indulgence and, but like really not giving into sort of, yeah, I guess non enjoyment. So I think that that's, that's probably the, yeah, the biggest yeah, the most inspiring.

Léa: What would [00:47:00] you say is your biggest learning experience as an artist? 

Seke: Biggest learning experience. Wow. I think well, part of me wants to say time, like just giving things time, and I think that's sort of I'd say that's probably one of the most difficult things as an artist, because I think most people won't get that at all, even if they wanted to I think I mean, I feel like I was, yeah, I feel like I've been really lucky to have had time to develop what I'm doing and people that I, yeah, people that I [00:48:00] admire or who are even just, you know, straightforwardly successful famous, I feel like, oh, they had a lot of time to develop that and that's really hard. I mean, I, I feel like I was really lucky. Like when I was in my twenties, I lived at home, with my mom all that time. So I wasn't paying rent. so I was living in London without paying rent and then, yeah, that really kind of allowed me to develop and take risks that I, yeah, I'm not saying that, you know, somebody can't do that without that situation, but, you know, for me, that was something that really enabled that. So I think, yeah, and then there's also, I guess, a little bit, the sort of, uh, confidence or, I don't [00:49:00] know, madness or hope that things will eventually work, uh, whether that's in a specific project or over, uh, you know, a whole life or whatever. I think, yeah I mean, that's not a specific experience of learning, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. I mean, I also think, like, and I don't know if I would have said this in the past, but I feel like it's important to keep doing things that feel true, a bit too difficult not like that feel awful, but just like things I don't know, like sometimes people ask me to do things and I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I'm really, I can do that or not but I always feel like those things, I always feel like I learn a lot when I, you know, do [00:50:00] something. I remember the first time somebody asked me to do movement direction on a play, and I was like, oh, well, I have never done that before. I don't really know what that means and, yeah, then you sort of learn a lot in those sorts of situations, but that's what I think anyway. Yeah, so I think that that feels important to keep kind of trying things that might seem either impossible or a little bit too hard or that you're not quite qualified to do. I think that feels important. I, I guess a bit like sort of, you know, if you are working on fitness or, or whatever, I feel like it's the same [00:51:00] sort of principle. 

Léa: Nice. Should we move on to the quickfire questions? 

Seke: Yeah. Okay.

Léa: So, I'm going to change this because it's very binary. I'm going to add a third option. For now, you have the binary version of it. Right. So, if you can, try to respond as quickly as possible without thinking too much.

Seke: Okay. 

Léa: Process or product? 

Seke: Process. Process. Process. 

Léa: Instinct or intuition? 

Seke: Oh, intuition. 

Léa: Reflection or impulsion? Impulse, impulsion. 

Seke: Impulsion. 

Léa: Success or failure? 

Seke: Failure. 

Léa: Stage or site specific? 

Seke: Stage. 

Léa Art, useless or useful? 

Seke; Oh, I was going to say [00:52:00] useless, but I could qualify that, but I'll say 
useless. 

Léa: Pilates or yoga?

Seke: Yoga. 

Léa: When creating, music on or off? 

Seke: On. 

Léa: If you weren't an artist, what job would you do? 

Seke: I have absolutely no idea. 

Léa: Step on the right or step on the left? 

Seke: On the right. 

Léa: The right step, step or a mistake?

Seke: The right step. 

Léa: Mm-Hmm, . Nice. Nice. Is there anything you wanna add? 

Seke: Um. Yeah, I don't know. I guess yeah, it's super interesting. I mean, I think, I feel 
like it's sort of more, maybe when you sort of proposed this topic, I think I had quite a 
clear feeling about it. And then, like, as we're [00:53:00] talking and I'm thinking about it, I'm like, oh, it's much more complicated than I felt somehow, I think. Yeah, I definitely feel like yeah, we could keep talking for days about what success and failure, what those things are, but I think success always comes with something, with some sort of price, whatever kind of success it is you know I mean, I'm more thinking about like fairly small scale, contemporary dance, experimental performance, but even within that kind of uh, [00:54:00] yeah, I think especially if you, if you're succeeding within a sort of system, then there's something that you're going to have to do, give away or take on that you don't want. I think, I mean, maybe that's a really obvious thing to say, but I think maybe or of what I'm thinking related to that is, I feel like if you sort of see someone who you think like, ah, they're doing really well, they've got it all sorted, I think they, it's all working for them. And either you feel like I need to be more like them or you feel jealous of them or you think it's unjustified or whatever. I think my experience of like, whenever I know people like that, it's really not that [00:55:00] at all. Like it isn't all going really well. it's not easy at all, there's things that they regret, things they wish they could could have done that they haven't been able to do. Yeah, on kind of any level, I think. because I think yeah, I guess there's a lot of like mystique around success in the arts and whether that's just like, success in terms of like somebody did something successfully, as in like you really like the artwork or, you know, the fact that somebody gets to tour their work a lot or makes lots of money from it or whatever, like, in either sense, I think it's not, not what it looks like on a superficial level, glance. so [00:56:00] yeah.

Léa: Um. Yeah, you're right. 

Seke: So, but yeah, I feel like it's such an interesting and I feel like I’ve been sort of contradicting myself or the whole way through. 

Léa: It’s the beauty about this conversation. 

Seke: Yeah. So it's, it's very, it's very interesting. Very interesting and so I think sometimes you can't tell if you're succeeding or failing as well. Like it can be both. Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. 

Léa: Thank you so much for, you know, taking the time to chat and to think. 

Seke: thank you. Yeah, thank you. 

Léa: Thanks a lot. Speak to you soon. Bye.[00:57:00] 

Seke: Bye