The Art of Faux Pas #2 - Samir M'Kirech

Samir is a french dancer based in Marseille, he worked with DV8, Les Ballets C de la B, Peeping Tom, Blanca Li, and Philippe Lafeuille amongst others. 
Together we talked about training, fitting in, taking actions, self-sabotage, working hard, working with kids, and..dreams.
He has such a powerful presence, he’s determined, hard-working and his journey is, I believe, one of the most inspiring ones. This chat will leave you with a strong sense of being able to achieve pretty much anything. 
I hope you’ll enjoy this chat as much as I did! 

Transcript

The Art of Faux Pas #2 - Samir M'Kirech 

Léa: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Art of Faux Pas. Here, we celebrate the artistic fuck ups, the feelings of failure, the blackouts, the falls, the unfollowed rules, the invaluable learning experiences within the creative process. All this with kindness, amusement, and respect. 
Today we're chatting with Samir M’Kirech.
Samir has such a powerful presence. He is determined, hardworking, and I really believe his journey is one of the most inspiring ones. This chat will leave you with a strong sense of being able to achieve pretty much anything. Samir is a French dancer. He's based in Marseille. He's worked with DV8, Les Ballets C de la B, Blanca Li and Philippe Lafeuille, amongst others.
Together, we talked about training, fitting in, taking actions, [00:01:00] self sabotage, working hard and dreams. I hope you'll enjoy this chat as much as I did. 

Hi Samir. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Samir: Hi Léa. 

Léa: Can you start by telling us your name, your age, and what you do? 

Samir: My name is Samir M’Kirech. I'm 37, almost 38 years old in, in nine days. And, and I'm a professional dancer trying to be, artist choreographing, you know, creator somehow. And, I do, also on that side, how do you say this in English? , financial counsellor or assets counsellor or something like this. And, I'm a new parent since two years and a half. 

Léa: Amazing. Congratulations on that. [00:02:00] What's your first memory of dance?

Samir: , first memory of dance is the first memory that brought me to dance, actually,  so I was doing this, baccalaureate in France. So it's like the high school diploma, in majoring in literature and arts and based on drama. And, so within this course, we were going to see many performances, per years, around 15 something like this.
So we got essays and stuff, you know, about the, the performance we were seeing. And, so I was in this major theater, in, in my hometown,  and I've seen Anna Teresa de Keersmaeker. And I was like, oh, wow, that was amazing. All the movement, the energy. Um, [00:03:00] and somehow there was some guy that I could relate to on stage. You know, he was kind of short, bulky,, shaved, and also, he was Arabic, actually. He was from North African background. But, but, nationality, I mean, he was living in Brussels, so he was Belgian. And, so I, you know, I was really, I was like, wow, what the hell was this? And, I remember everyone has left the theater, and I was like still sitting down, and I was like, oh, okay, this is what I'm gonna do.
And, it was actually on my second year because I had to, because I didn't pass the exam. So I had to do it again and I found my path, you know, during that, that year. So everything has meaning. 

Léa: Yeah. So you understood very early on that dance could be a career?

Samir: Um, I was, [00:04:00] I was quite advanced in football, so almost a semi professional, you know, semi professional footballer, but, but I knew it was not gonna happen. So I, I met hip hop at the time, but I knew I was not going to do a career in hip hop.
I just liked to have another activity besides football or doing something, you know, instead of hanging out in my neighborhood with the guys. And I studied hip hop at the same time, you know, between my second year of high school, yeah, second year of high school, yeah, first year, second year of high school, I can't remember exactly, but, yeah, it was fun to see that art came up to me and, [00:05:00] and then, you know, you have this training already with the football, you know, the thing that you have to push through, you have to understand, part of, part of a career, would you like to do it for, I don't know, as a pleasant activity or you want to do it and go further into it, and get, you know, deeper knowledge.
So yeah, for dance, when I met it, it was like straight away, straight away, and I completely merged into it and then tried to find, you know, solutions how to make it happen and where it could be because I was already, you know, 19. 19, 20 years old, and all the clichés, you know, you have to start at five and be good and be tall and be skinny and be blah, blah, blah, and be white.
I was like, yeah, like, how am I going to make it happen? But then, we find a solution. 

Léa: So where did you train? Where did your [00:06:00] training start? And then where, where did you train afterwards? 

Samir: I started with, with the Conservatoire de Rouen, which is a regional one. And, I was doing a school in Paris on my first year called RIDC, Rencontres Internationales de Danse Contemporaine, led by, Françoise and Dominique Dupuis, they were major choreographer, French choreographer in the eighties, seventies, can't remember exactly.
But this school wasn't really for me. It was just too slow. It was just too French. No offense for the French. I love them, respect them a lot. But it was just too « You feel it, you feel it », now at some point you have to stop feeling, you have to do it, it was more feeling than doing, so it was not for me.
And, on my second year, I went to another [00:07:00] school called, Rico Dams, which had really, really good, good teachers. I don't think it was the best school I ever did, but it was a really good school to... To push, to push it through because they were doing, they were really, really pushing, pushing, pushing.
You know, you had like three to five class a day so, so now, yeah, they were, they were really, really pushing. And then I got into Martha Graham school of contemporary dance in New York. And I did the second company from the first year to my last year there. So I stayed there three years and you know, was dancing, with the second company.
Then I went to the Ballet Junior de Genève. 

Léa: For how long did you stay in Genève? 

Samir: One year and a half because I couldn't finish the second course because I, I had the amazing privilege to be chosen by Lloyd Newson for the creation of ‘Can We Talk About This’? So I had to leave, in between, [00:08:00] in the middle of the year.

Léa: Great. And they were okay with that? The school was like, okay with that? 

Samir: Yeah, that was funny because they never let anyone, you know, miss a contract there. But if it was a major company like DV8 or I remember there was another guy with Preljocaj who also had to leave, so they were okay with it. But if it was like, you know, some project based and then, they weren’t okay.
But if it was a major company, they were okay. Like some project, they'll be like, okay, you choose whether you want to go work or you want to stay, you want to stay here and keep learning. 

Léa: And can you tell us who you worked with afterwards? So you worked with DV8 and then I know you have an amazing, you have like wonderful artists you worked with.

Samir: So after I worked with, Blanca Li, I worked with, Peeping Tom, for an opera. Which was a very short collaboration, but it was an amazing one.[00:09:00] Franck Chartier was, was great. Um, I worked with, Philippe Lafeuille also,  Alain Platel with Les Ballets C de la B. And this was, also kind of a great, great, great experience.
Um, and I'm, I'm working with a theater company called Anima Motrix, led by, Laurent Hatat and Emma Gustafsson. And, so I'm doing most, yeah, it's pretty much, theater and, so there's a lot of text. Right now we're touring Anigone by Sophocle. And there is input of text of a, you know, modern text of a, French author called Julie Ménard. We were in high school together actually. 

Léa: That’s funny. 

Samir: And, and yeah,  and I'm doing the, the role of Hémon. [00:10:00] which is the love of Antigone. And yeah, it's funny, it's funny because I, I keep realizing how different were the projects I was doing from one to another, and I think it was it was clear in my in my career view, or my career strategy that I want, I didn't want to be, you know, this type of dancer that kept on doing the same thing.
And funny enough, each time I was auditioning for a company, like institutional companies, I never got the job, even though I was going far in the audition, never got the job, because, I don't know, the fate has chosen also for me. 

Léa: Hmm. Are you able to say why dance?

Samir: You know, Martha Graham has... [00:11:00] One of the main quotes of Martha is « I didn't choose dance, dance choose me. » I thought it was really, really extremely pretentious when I read this for the first time. But then I realized that she's completely right. There's nothing pretentious to it. It's just... It comes, it comes into you, you embody it, it comes into your blood and it comes to your mind and then you keep, you know, I remember my first years, or my first years, ten years of… yeah, for the first ten years, it was dance. The whole time. You go to sleep with dance, you wake up with dance, you live with dance and most of the thing you're doing is about dance and around dance and which kind of a pity now that I'm 38 years old and I realized that what I've done, what I've done between since, since 18, it was dancing, but, but yeah, [00:12:00] it just come up to you and then you don't shoot it.
Not sure you shoot it. 

Léa: Nice. You've had an amazing experience as a dancer, you, I know you toured in so many different international venues. What's your best memory on stage as a dancer? 

Samir: Oh, I don't know. Um. 

Léa: Or maybe a few, you don't have to pick one. 

Samir: Yeah. Well, the first one was, you know, you're already, I was already, you know, I was not shocked, you know, to be chosen in DV8 'cause when I applied for DV8, I kind of didn't know. I knew, you know, I knew DV8, I knew I didn't, knew DV8 was huge like this. But I knew the work of DV8. I knew ‘The cost of living’. I mean, all the videos that was on the internet, I had seen them, but I didn't know that it was such a [00:13:00] huge company like this. And that Lloyd Newson was that intense. Um.
On the first performance. I mean the first of the year, after previews we go into Sydney Opera House. I mean, I can't imagine, I mean, it's like playing for Real Madrid or Manchester United, you know and then you're like you come into this stadium and this is the venue man, all you've all I've seen, you know from this opera is like, you know postcards. Or, you know, clips on internet or something and then photos of it. And then you get into it and, and all of a sudden you realize that you're going to be performing in it. And I remember there was, there was this moment where, I was jumping, I mean, one of my scene was jumping on a beat. And we were working and, and I don't know, well, my [00:14:00] my, my weakness in dance is musicality, and, and, you know, for some reason on that moment, you know, I mean, we come into my, we do the tech rehearsal and then it comes to my scene and then I start not jumping in a bit and then Lloyd can start to, starts to freak out because it's the first premiere, he's Australian, you get into, maybe, you know. You have the whole pressure, all the pressure comes into your back all of a sudden, you don't even know why. Why you don't do the step like you, like you do it. And then, yeah, but then it went all fine and it was great. But I think this was a great, great, great, great, great, memory.
But also, lessons, how to, how to say, how to deal with the pressure. There was an early lesson [00:15:00] that is very, very important. Then I could say also the, my most amazing, memories on stage, which would, would deviate or, or whatever company was, it was when there was problems. You know, I remember in Blanca Li, we were in this outside performance at a beautiful space and then all of a sudden, all dancing, and then the music stops.
And then by the time everyone, you know, everyone realized the music stops, then every count is fucked up. Yeah. So all of a sudden, it brings the company, it brings the company up together. It becomes really tight, even tighter if it was the music, and, then, also with DV8, you know, I remember there was a, I had a colleague who sprung an ankle.
Then you have to jump in right away, you have no idea, the text, the movement. Well, we have no idea, [00:16:00] not necessarily no idea, but we didn't rehearse at the second cast as much as the first cast. But, yeah, you have to cover. 

Léa: Yeah, suddenly you're in the now

Samir: Yeah, and all of a sudden the present becomes something so powerful. Um, and it makes sense with movement, the book, ‘The power of the present’ in French. With Platel also, we had one day, a projector. I don't know why it exploded and then you had, you know, it's the glass on stage. [00:17:00] So I realized this and then we, we had this, this covers on stage. So I, I took one cover and then I start improvising with the cover and then, and then, you know, cleaning up a little bit and then putting all the thing in a corner so no one could, could injure himself,  now I've said tons of shit happens and it's funny. Yeah they are also also one day, you know, I was in Paris and six months of touring, you know every two three days travelling and instead of going to Gare de Lyon I went to Gare du Nord, then you miss your train. But this happens only once to me I nnow some dudes, man, it was quite often. They would pay him and I don't know how they were living with it because they were giving a lot of their salary to those tickets because they are missing so many trains.
I was like, man, how do you live with yourself? 

Léa: And I have another question, which is what's your [00:18:00] worst memory on stage, which I think we always transform. As you said, all the problems and all the shit that happens, we just transform them into something great or lessons. But what, you know, do you think of any?

Samir: Yeah, when you think that was just really terrible that happened on stage. Yeah, there was a, funny enough, it was my best one was with Lloyd and my worst one was with Lloyd as well,  so we were at the National Theater and we were rehearsing 

Léa: (in London)

Samir: Yeah, in London. And then, so we were rehearsing tech again because we were rehearsing every day. If I remember where it was like between three, three to four hours before, before show. And, again, you know, sometimes, I mean,  in every show I went after doing it so many times, you know, it slips. Slips a bit or becomes a bit different,  but with [00:19:00] Lloyd, that's not possible with that type of choreography. It's, it is not possible. So, and also he has this faculty because he was also a great dancer before being an amazing choreographer. So he has these eyes really, really extremely precise. We had some jumps to do and finish in a line, you know, all I mean the whole cast I mean, we were five of those, five of us, you know and we had to finish in a line and for some reason the path of someone was changed whether it was me or someone else I still don't know. I still don't know who fucks up, but then he was like, « ah Samir »  « what? »  « You're not in line. » Then he after saying multiple time, you know the you feel the tension, start feeling the ambience, the moods get tensed and everyone was scared. So no one would take responsibility [00:20:00] for the mistakes.
And this also some, some, something that I want to, highlight because, in many companies, people are scared to make mistakes, but mistakes are amazing. Mistakes is what makes you improve,  we have to, we have to stop thinking that we have to be the good student, the system wants to make us great and wants to make us, a nice little puppet, you know, here to, to, to listen to what the master is told and who's the master, president, the law, the choreographer, the director, the one who's giving you the job, but apparently we live in a country of freedom of speech, of so called democracy, so why can't we apply this at work? A mistake happens, it does happen, then yeah, okay, cool, we [00:21:00] work it out so it doesn't happen again. But there's no need, to be scared. Yeah,  so, so then it continues and then, you know, I start to get on my nerves, I try to remain calm because it's still my director, I still have a huge respect for Lloyd, but then he pushed it a little too much and then I start screaming and screaming at him and I lost it. Then I realized that I'm screaming at my boss and, and it can't work like this and, and I just shut up and then go back on stage and, and we do it again.
And everyone was like, everything like was watching the scene because, thinking what do you want to do anyway? Um, and, so we do it, we do, we do it one more time and, and, and for some reason it happened. 

Léa: Again? 

Samir: Yeah. No, no, no. It didn't happen. I mean, the whole, it [00:22:00] comes back to 
order. 

Léa: Okay. It works. 

Samir: And, and so we do it one more time for chance and, and, and it works. So cool. And at the end of the show, he comes to me and he was like, « Oh, it was a good show. It was a great show. » And I was like, « look, Lloyd, I'm extremely, extremely sorry for what happened,  I lost my chimp » - the chimp is within that time is what we called in our brain, you know, the little animal. All that, that talks to you and start to be, it's the one that stress you, the one that had bad influence on you. Um, and I was like, « look like I lost my chimp. I'm, I'm, I'm extremely sorry » I was kind of embarrassed and he was like, no, there's lesson to take for both of us. So it was great to see that no matter how much he puts pressure on us, they still realize, it's a, [00:23:00] it's a two ways discussion.

Léa: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Nice. So if we go to Faux Pas, a Faux Pas is a socially embarrassing action or mistake. Now, if we think about failure for a moment, what, what would be your definition of failure?

Samir: For me, failure, it's simple, and it's probably, as I was saying before, what society makes you feel. It is, how do you, how do you, define failure is pretty much, by not succeeding on something you want to do,  let's say, when I started dance, I wanted to be at, Béjar school, Rudra. I go to the audition and I didn't get it. That's a failure. I quit America because, I didn't feel connected with the arts and dance at that moment in America. And I... And I discovered Batsheva [00:24:00]  in 2007/8, so I left everything. I go to Ballet Junior de Genève to say I'm gonna have a bit more ballet training, a bit more, neoclassical training to be able to enter into Batsheva Dance Company.
I get into the audition, I got cut. That's a failure. 

Léa: Do you consider that these failures shaped you today? And maybe in the end were successes because they allowed you to have this amazing career you had? 
Samir: Oh, yeah. For me… 

Léa: Did you see them as failures today? 

Samir: I still see them as failure because I didn't get what I wanted to get, but it's part of my path. What we call failure makes us stronger, extremely stronger, builds us a really strong mental, a really strong, I mean, psychology skills. To face, to face different stuff that we wouldn't believe we we would [00:25:00] actually in the first place, also it pushes us, to achieve or take risk or go to some places where we wouldn't go in first place.
And, there was a, for me, something that happens to me with Martha Graham. And, when I was in the second company, I, arrived to the last year, third year there, and they have changed, the artistic director within, yeah, not too long before I come to the end of my time there.
And I was really, really pushing to get into the company. And, there was an artistic director, Janet Aylberg, who had, an idea, a vision for that company, who was much more, based into what she lived as a dancer in, in that company at the time, [00:26:00] which was tall guys, short women, and, well, obviously I'm one meter 60/70 or something, kind of short.
And, and she was like, no, no matter how is your talent. I would not take you, you don't match with the, with the, with the.. 

Léa: Canon? 

Samir: Yeah, with the vision that I have for the, for the company. And maybe also it was a nice way to say that I was not strong enough, but this is more how I took it. Yeah, of course. This way too, I was like, yeah, let's not, let's not focus on the, on the, yeah, on the aesthetic part because this I can't, I can't change it.
I won't take hormones to get into Martha Graham's company and get bigger and get the job. But. What she meant, was like, focus on your technique, focus on your training, be better, be... And then it also went into a stage where this [00:27:00] failure went to push me in a sense that... You're not, you're not, you're never going to be judged again by some aesthetic criteria, but you will oblige people to work with you because, you know, you're going to be good enough and available enough to invite people to work with you.
Um, so, so this also came really, really early in the career and, yeah, after a year, it was like my third year or something. So after you develop this, you keep thinking about it and then you develop it. 
Um, so I'd say my best success, my definition of success is just when, when, you achieve what you want to achieve. You achieve the picture you had in mind. [00:28:00] so my best success, my best success are based on my best failure. I wouldn't have had the, the career I had if I was, if that person gave me a job at Martha Graham.
I wouldn't have the, the, yeah, I wouldn't have the open, the, that open mind for that career strategy. I was talking before to do every project different. 

Léa: And also somehow, it sounds like you developed a strong sense of yourself as well, like something to, I don't know, an ability to, to defend, protect, value yourself for who/what you are.

Samir: Well, I love politics, for example. I think politics, geopolitics, economy, I think they're a great subject. And I think art has a place within this subject. [00:29:00] And, you have to develop also, strong abilities to defend, who you are because, and what you believe in. Because being part of a company, you have to depend to defend the project of someone else. You can discuss, you can bring perspective, but at the end of the day, you don't have the power of decision. You don't take any decision. 

Léa: Yeah. But I think somehow you're still an active part of the decision making. No, I feel you're still part of the project. 


Samir: That’s, that's what I say. You, you propose a perspective. And then if the person says, no, for example, with Platel, it was very difficult because you had so much freedom, so much freedom. I've never experienced in my entire life [00:30:00] as much democracy as in this company. At the end of the day, Alain has the last word, but when you, we were making improv for three hours, one hour and a half improv, three hours improv.
Two hours improv, he knows what he doesn't want to see because at the moment you present it or you propose it. He knows he wants it or doesn't want it, but he doesn't know what he wants to see. So you keep, you keep digging. Yeah. 

Léa: Until he sees it. 

Samir: And you dig and you dig and you dig for five months. Mm.

Léa: So with all these creative processes you went through, what do you think is the space for failure within these processes? 

Samir: Well, I'm a bit, I'm a bit harsh on this. I, I don't have space for failure,  I, I believe, I believe failures [00:31:00] are great. Which is completely, contradictive, in what, in, in, in, in what I believe, but they're great as long as you know how to master them.
Because I've seen too many dancers who fail into an audition, who are failing in many auditions at the same time in a short amount of time, for example, three months, and then they don't get a job for six months, they don't get a job, and then they'll be like, Oh, I'm a failure. I'm a shit. And then they start to, revalue who they are, what they're doing into this business and all that stuff. You can't do this. You can't do this. You need to have a clear vision of yourself on stage, of yourself dancing, of yourself being the person you want to be[00:32:00] and this applies for anything.

It can be for dance, for any industry, any work you want to do, any dream you have, you have to visualize yourself doing it. So that failure. Or this failure won't affect you as much and your drip skill is still, still going on and you're still seeking for it. So this is my first advice is visual, visualize.

My second advice is, you have no space other than work. Because if you visualize and then you don't take action and you can stay home. Basically, if you don't take action, don't do anything. If you don't do anything, nothing's going to happen, so you have to take action, even if it's something every day.

Small action leads to big actions. And, [00:33:00] and, this has to be done. It's part of your discipline, your determination, your motivation. Well, basically for me, motivation brings determination, determination brings discipline. Discipline brings a routine. And routine of a small action brings big action, then it becomes a whole project made.
If you write two lines every day for ten years, then you have a book. So, but I know, I know, when I see it, it sounds easy, but it's super difficult. It's super difficult. You have to play, you have also to play with your mind and, and, and sometimes trick your mind because your mind is very powerful. Yeah, it is.

Léa: I want to talk a little bit about feedback because I feel sometimes, you know, something we all encounter as artists is we hear unwanted feedback, you know, a lot of people sort of like will tell you things you didn't really ask [00:34:00] for. So what was, for example, the worst thing someone's ever said to you about your work?

Samir: You’re too short. And it comes back to that story. You're too short. But this, this is one of the worst because I, even before this, I had the, from Rambert School and the, and the Conservatoire National, Supérieur de Lyon. So I applied to those two schools and then, I didn't get invited to the audition saying, I remember, well, we give, « basically we invite people we believe they're going to have a career in dance. »
I, I haven't even started dancing!

Léa: Yeah. 

Samir: This is what I receive in my mind. And then you talk to me about what's the failure, what's the success. And I tell you, it's, it's, it's, and also at that [00:35:00] moment, my family wasn't really supportive except my mom of me being the dancer because of all the, the problems ideas we have, you know, about dance and male dancings, even though today, it has changed and shifted a lot, but about 20 years ago, it was still very, very stuck into that place. Um, but, so these were, these were very, very hard.

Léa: And what was the best thing someone's ever said to you about your work?

Samir: I don't know. 

Léa: We usually forget those. 

Samir: I don't know. I remember, it was not about me especially, but, you know, when you come out of stage and then you meet some member of the audience and they come in and [00:36:00] tell you, Oh, this was one of the best, one of the best, show I've seen in my life or, or recently I was in.
And I've came last year with one of the theater piece and that person have seen that piece and then we come this year with another piece and then with a different company and then she comes and she said Look, I've seen you somewhere and I think you were great before and you're still amazing and yeah, and I was like, oh lovely. Thank you but this these are very subjective and for me, I look, It’s usually I don't know how to answer. I just say i'm happy you like the piece i'm happy i'm happy that the piece made you dreams or you know, um I find some, you know, nice way of [00:37:00] saying thank you, but um.
Again, it's very contradictive what I'm gonna say, because I kind of don't care. But at the same time, they're small victories. Yes. All victories. It leads to big victories. Yeah. And big victories are very nice for the heart, for the body, for your mind, for yourself, for your for, for your, for, for yourself.
As a, as a, as a dancer. As an artist, overall. Um, so they're, they're very important moment. Not sure I, you know, I just still feel embarrassed also sometimes. 

Léa: Yeah, it's hard to take compliments, right? How do you feel about your work or your practice today? Looking back, but also today, how do you feel about it?

Samir: Um, I was very disciplined. I was extremely, extremely disciplined because I had no plan B. [00:38:00] I had to succeed in dance and make a living with dance or with being a comedian or whatever,  because my family have invested in me so much. I have two young brothers. One is an engineer. He's done engineering school, private engineering school.
He couldn't, my parents couldn't pay for it. So he had to pass through this program that working, you know, when you do an alternate, so you work part time in a company, in engineering company, and then they pay for school,  so he didn't get the, the ease, the easy way, you know, the way I got it. My parents took a loan and then, you know, basically funded my, my, training.
Um, so I didn't get this. And then the other, my other brother didn't care about study. He was pretty much, you know, pretty, more basic, you know, he was going to [00:39:00] public school and public superior school and that's it. So no question for this with him. But um, but yeah, when, when you engage your family so much into this and then they, when they were, also, they're not coping with your choice, with your choices, then you have to prove them.
Yeah. Also by starting very late, you always feel behind, so you always feel like, I have to catch up the train now, so you're doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, and as we said before, by doing, doing, doing big action, big action, big success, and also the vision. And in the end, I prayed a lot, prayed, prayed a lot. So my faith also, brings me, somehow, something that I believe that[00:40:00] no one can, no one can beat me. No one can beat me. Dance won't beat me. But what is dance? Yeah. I always say this to most of my girls, my friends, my girlfriends, because it's very, it's more difficult with them, or because, I mean, the industry is very, it's more difficult on women than men. The system is as well. Um, but, you know, I, I tell them that, I have to prove all the time you have to, to, to keep, to keep fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting for, for what you want.

Léa: Do you have, do you have a quote, like super inspiring quote that you keep close to your heart and that might help you keep going, that you sometimes go back to when you need? 

Samir: Um, I, I believe that. [00:41:00] No, no one wrote it. I just keep, keep believing in this is try to make impossible possible. And I think it's possible.
And I think it's super possible. I think, again, that quote is, is based on my own path on dance. And, and, and, you know, even today, I wouldn't believe that I could be an asset counselor, then I emerged into this world, of finance, of, of economy and also it's strongly, strongly, I mean, assets are strongly, strongly, linked to geopolitics.
So, you know, it's a huge responsibility. People can't trust you, with their money that they, that they worked so hard, you know, to gain but I believe, I believe with that job, I [00:42:00] can provide a part of the cake for everyone. This is my goal. It's more, it's more how to democratize, assets managing because most of the time when we call assets, when we talk about assets, we believe, that it's for rich people, but not only, for like art, art is for everyone. 
We provide it everywhere. I've toured in Théâtre de la Ville, great venues, amazing, amazing venues. But at the same time, I went also into some places in, I mean, I mean in places, in England, you know, where, where no one would go and no one would go. But, I remember, you know, we were in this place, in this place in south of France, in, in the countryside where people were, sitting down in chairs  there was like garden [00:43:00] chairs.
We didn't have crossover. We had to go, you know, all the way go, go out of the building. Run super fast to get into, and it was like minus five, outside, but you, we were in slippers. We were just, you know, you were just wearing boxes and we had to do it and that's cool because that was the condition because these people also needed to be, art needs to reach to that people as well.
And I prefer, I prefer, you know, traveling so hard and being there than having to know these people, they're going to be watching TV or watching garbage on TV or watching art on TV, which is even worst.

Léa: Let’s go with, to our quick fire questions. So just quick fire questions. You just try to answer as quickly as possible,  let's see. Ready? 

Samir: I’m not really good at that stuff, but I'll do my best. 

Léa: It’s related to dance [00:44:00] and art. And so let's see, you know.. Process or product?

Samir: process

Léa :instinct or intuition. 

Samir: Instinct

Léa: Reflection or impulsion? 

Samir: Both. 

Léa: Success or failure? 

Samir: Definitely success. 

Léa: Stage or site specific? 

Samir: Oh, definitely stage. 

Léa: Art, useless or useful? 

Samir: Use use use use use use use useful. Useful. 

Léa: Pilates or yoga?

Samir: Pilates. 

Léa: When creating, music on or off? 

Samir: No, on. 

Léa: Step on the right or step on the left?

Samir: Right

Léa: if you weren't an artist, what job would you do? 

Samir: I don't know, I'd be doing, I'd be a president. 

Léa: The right step or a mistake? 

Samir: Mistake. [00:45:00] 

Léa: Yeah. Nice. That was the quick fire questions. Cool. Thank you so much, Samir. That was so inspiring and really moving. I loved it. I feel like it's a conversation I, I really wanted to have with you for a while. So thank you for giving me this time. 

Samir (whatsapp voice note sent after the podcast): There’s also a question we didn't raise. It was, when dancers sabotage themselves during audition, during class, during, during their, their, their, their own career. And this happens for amateurs and professional dancers. But, I think it's a mixed feeling going with, the lack of trust in ourselves. And, and maybe some expectation that we, we, we, we put for that for ourselves. For example, I sabotaged myself. I had this audition with the Scottish Dance Theatre, [00:46:00] which happened with, no, for Phoenix, sorry, for Phoenix Dance Theatre, excuse me. Um, and, you know, I go until the audition, everything goes. It was fine, we do, we do duets, we do classes, we do rep, we do all that, all improv. It was all fine, and I get to the interview, and, and, I don't know, there was something inside me, it was like, I still can't say if it was, do I want something different than this company, or should I take this job and I'm that close to get the job, to get my first job. I was still at a transition company, the Ballet (Genève) at the time, so I was not getting paid for my dancing. So, at the interview, they were like, so do you have something you want to tell us, you know, to finish the interview?
And I was like, yeah, um, I [00:47:00] completely, completely doomed myself. I start to, talk about that. I don't have enough, enough experience, that, I'm not sure about, whether it's the right place to for me or the right repertoire to dance for me, where. We did Graham classes and I come from the Graham, legacy, you know, I did my, I did my course at the Martha Graham school, dance for the second company with Martha Graham, so there was nothing, I danced a lot of duets, so there was, there was nothing in this audition that I couldn't do or that was not, um, qualified, you know, to do in the end, as I tell them, you know, like to really, really, really complete the sabotage: « Well, I have an audition for Scottish Dance Theatre next week. Do you think? What kind of [00:48:00] company it is? ». And then I start talking about another company when this company is interested in me. I mean, I have the honor, the honor of having a company interested in my dancing and interested in me and probably giving me a contract.
And then I completely, completely, completely, completely, completely do myself, sabotage myself because I didn't trust whether it was the good company, the right company for me. Um, or not, or, or whether was I scared to enter into the professional world and this happens for pretty much I mean these patterns happen for every dancers at some point in their lives, in their career and um that's something also we need to to take on board , and no one's talked about this during training or during your career.
We don't share this with dancers,  maybe we're too proud. Maybe we're too shy. Maybe we don't want to bother people. [00:49:00] Um, that's why, that's why I want to raise this, this question of sabotaging ourselves.

(end of the WhatsApp voice note) 

Léa (back to the conversation): There’s a tangent to the, The Art of Faux Pas is is the Milky Boobs on the dance floor. Cause you have kids and we have like few minutes to talk about this. And I'm really interested in talking about how you deal with being an artist and having a family. Um, is it okay to talk about that for a few minutes?

Samir: Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

Léa: So tell me about your family, how many kids you have and what year they were born in?

Samir: Um, Aaron, my first, my first child is two years old, two and a half years old, is born in two, in 21,  and Adele, he's, he's just past one years old, and he's born in 22. 

Léa: Nice. Professionally, where were you at when they were born?

Samir: The [00:50:00] first one was in COVID and the second one was just after COVID, so but yeah, yeah, yeah, we, we worked, I was touring and the first one I was just finishing creating, but we got stopped with COVID. 

Léa: Because your partner is also a dancer. What do you think is the biggest difficulty for you to be parents and to be artists?

Samir: To be honest, I think Elena would be the best one for this question. Um, but I have to say she's been doing amazing. She's been doing amazing because, you know, she, it moves me actually because she put her career aside. She put herself aside for two and a half years, since two and a half years because it's not finished already.
She hasn't started dancing again. Um, [00:51:00] she, she's doing a lot of work, but she hasn't really been again on stage at the same pace as she was,  but, yeah, it's, she's been doing amazing for this and I thank her that, because of... of, yeah. Every sacrifice she's done for, for the family, for the kids, that I have been able to keep on touring. And I can't thank, thank her enough for this. 

Léa: What do you think, being a dad brought to you? What did he bring you as an artist? 

Samir: Like it brought, I know it brought the perspective. It brought me definitely perspective. It changed also my way of moving,  when you were talking about instinct or intuitions or reflection or impulsion, it does change stuff. If you were more intuitive before or more on that side before, then [00:52:00] you would definitely open everything up. Um, you stop multitasking, especially for men, which is very, very difficult. 

Léa: And do you feel like the, the, the, the institutions or the artists you worked with, did they support you in your parenthood? Did they help you, for example, having your kids around when needed? Did you, did you get any support, any understanding from the people you worked with? 

Samir: Well, there's um, anyway, there's companies you, you know, if they're going to be supportive or not, but then also sometimes you just have to bring, you don't know, sometimes you don't know, and you just try. But most of the time, everyone, everyone is cool. Everyone understands, being a parent is difficult, or otherwise they would tell you. They will tell you. I remember I was, I was on, on a season in Paris and then, [00:53:00] Elena had a work to do,  she was assisting a choreographer in Paris and I was performing at night, but then you have to go, you know, a few hours before then. So I, I had Aaron with me. Um, I called a few friends, you know, if they could look out for Aaron when I was warming up and doing, you know, corrections on stage and stuff. But he was still around, and the thing, the venue was... I'll put them to the dressing rooms with us, and then we keep on coming in and leaving.
So we found solution. At the end of the day, we found solution. I think in France also, we've got, I can't remember exactly how many hours, I think 300 hours per year, that that , it's not the government, but there is this thing for artists, this association for artists that, can refund the, the cost of a nanny when you're on on tour. [00:54:00] Actually it's not that much, but it's still, yes, it's still amazing. It's still amazing. And still, I'm thinking we're very, very thankful for this because, I was working so we had the two kids in Strasbourg and then we could hire a nanny and, and pay only one quarter of what it really cost.
So, that's amazing. So it's, it's really, it's, it's amazing. It's amazing. Definitely amazing. But for the moment, we didn't, I didn't receive any rejection on being a dad and, or Elena being a, even, even, even lately we auditioned for Emmanuel Gat, and, you know, we had to breastfeed the kids, so, the nanny came during the lunch break and, brought us the last one and then, Emmanuel came up to us and he was like, look, if you want to have your kids around in the studio, I'm really happy. And that was, we're talking about a workshop audition [00:55:00] So it's, it's cool.
I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure it does exist. People who are like, you know, very, very, closed to the idea of having kids around and stuff. But for example, I remember also, Blanca Li brought her kids and, and the assistant brought her kids. And then we start playing football within the rehearsal in the video.
So it becomes a whole mess, but man, it's part of life. It's part of, it could be, it could be a good part of a creation process. Yeah. 

Léa: Yeah, and it's also amazing for the kids to see that, to see that this world is possible as well, to witness art from the very beginning. Do you think the, the residency slash creation model should be rethought for parents? I think for people who have, you know, kids, but also maybe there's something about the environment that might be linked, you know, cause now we talk a lot about the ‘hop residences’ where you do one week there, you do one week [00:56:00] there, you have three weeks of nothing in between. Do you think the model we create should be rethought? 

Samir: Um, I'm not sure I can answer that question. Um, the thing is, if you work with project based company, this can't be possible. Or you have, or the company have to provide enough work for us to focus only on one company. And then say, look, I'm going to, I'm going to book this six months, which is pretty much a whole season for that company.
And then wherever you want to go, I'll go with you. But then the schedule would be much easier because you're only with one company, but then if you start having two, three. Project around then it's difficult. You must have you must work,  on the agenda. The agenda is very, very, very, very, the schedule is very, very [00:57:00] hard. Sometimes you work with this big scale company, which makes everything, everything possible and easy. Yeah, and also in terms of childcare, like if you take your, your, you know, change your children every two weeks, you know, you go there and then you go there with them. It's kind of complicated. I feel I'm not sure because we've done this.
You know, I appreciate you know, all the studies, you know, saying that kids need, a certain routine. They need a stability, Yeah. I realize with Aaron, also, we've moved him a lot, much more than one, because when you travel with two kids, then it becomes, it becomes much harder. Like, we come back from Portugal and it was, it was, it was difficult.
We managed to do it. It's a lot of energy. It's a lot of energy. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's difficult,  But then, [00:58:00] but then Aaron adapts quite a lot, but after there's consequences, I'm not saying that it's so bright and nice, there are consequences, I mean, he's almost three years old, he's not doing his night, still, you know, waking up during the night, asking for, for the, for, for the, for the breast, you know, at night and stuff, but, but kids are happy, you know, they're, we, I mean, there's tons of theory, you know, ‘Positive éducation’, you know, how do you say, we ‘Parentalité proximale’, so like, you know, close parentality, something like this, in some, you know, weird translation, literal translation, but, I just realized that a kid, as long as he’s, I know as long as they're with their parents, there's love. Yes. And, and you know, they don't even, they don't need even toys. We buy them toys, [00:59:00] we fill them toys and stuff, and then got all these great toys around and then they go grab a, you know, a tick of wood. 

Léa: A broom, yeah. 

Samir: Yeah. A broom or AAAI, I dunno. They go, they go play with the lamp. Then you're like, what the hell, dude? 

Léa: You know, it's funny 'cause for me, I, I thought it was very easy to sort of like, get the kids everywhere. And then Gaspard was with me on the project. Gaspard and Roxane, both my kids were with me on the project when he was four. And somehow he was missing his friends and every day he was saying he was missing his friends and I was like, okay, maybe we've reached the moment where I can take you everywhere with me. No, it's like somehow when they were younger, there was no questions asked, they were fine everywhere, but somehow I really saw the change at that point for him. 

Samir: Yeah, but it's, it's, it's funny because Aaron was going to the kindergarten at six. But he was going in and out because we were [01:00:00] taking him, and also he's got that class that since two years, so that's the same people.
It's just half of the class that changes because for pedagogical reasons in this kindergarten, So he has this, this strong, how do you say, this strong , how do you say this, um, network,  it's not, it's not, not network. But anyway, it has this kids that he's close to, yeah, they're very close to since and, and since he entered the kindergarten.
So when you, you, you say their name or you show a picture, then he's supposed to say the names, or smile, or be like , you know, if he likes them or not, or if he remembers a good memory or bad memory and blah, blah, blah. But he's not mentioning them. [01:01:00] But he's also half the age of, of Gaspard when, you know, when he was doing these actions of, you know, of calling his friends. But we talked to him a lot, by saying; we’re going, you know, we're going to be leaving, we're going to be doing this and that. And then... On the, on the, on the, on the way back; Oh, where are you gonna go on Monday? Are you going to, the kindergarten? Who are you going to see at the kindergarten? Who's, who's at the kindergarten? Who are you going to see? What are you going to do? Um, and then you start, you know, enumerating and saying names and, and, and stuff that he does. But, but at the moment, we're not in that phase. I think it's closer when you get to school. Which leads to another question for me.
What's the impact of school in the brain of kids? Um, why school is so important, [01:02:00] all so present, not important, present, in our lives. Because instruction can be, you know, taught, get through, through experiences, you know, you can't, you don't need, for example, you know, eight hours a day at school, sitting down into a chair and you see someone who's, who's teaching you stuff that has been taught to, has been taught to, so it's a lot of question that, you know, also as an artist, I question. Or, you know, I question that system we live in, which I kind of more and more, put back to question, but at the same time, you can't live off that system. I'm not gonna not put my kids at school, but there's, I think there's, there's room for, for this to be improved, especially for, for kids because we lived, and we experienced, this system, especially the [01:03:00] schooling system, I think it's not efficient, especially the French one, and I think it's getting worse and worse, less money invested into it, but more, we have more money into, into wars and, and, and, and weapons than, than health and, and, and instruction, so how can, how can, You know, how do you build a good society with this?

Léa: By keeping art alive. 

Samir: Yeah, by keeping art alive. But I always say art or knowledge is a weapon. But they're fighting it as well. They're fighting that out because they're not funding, they're not funding the way it used to be. They're cutting funds to, to replace this fund for, for, yeah, they just shipped this fund to other budget that kind [01:04:00] of don't need it. Yeah. So having, having kids for me, it's pretty much also this, you know. You have a big..

Léa: you question the world

Samir: you question the world also. Yeah. Because you have to rediscover it and you rediscover it through the eyes of your kids and you have to, also, not make conclusion of what you've, what, what you lived, but you have to re-visualize what you lived and your success and your failure.

Léa: Thank you so much, Samir. It was really, really great. Thank you for your time. 
Samir: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. It was great questions, actually. Great, great question. 

Léa: Um, thank you. I'm going to turn off the recording[01:05:00] so we cansay bye… 

(CUT to music) 

(End, little bonus in silence - beginning of the conversation that was cut off to this edit)

« Hi Samir, thank you so much for joining us, for joining us, I'm going to say for joining us, I'll start again. I'm more stressed than I thought!!! »