The Art of Faux Pas #7 - Sarah Blanc

Sarah Blanc is an Irish artist based in London. She is simply magnificent: she shines with positivity, passion and enthusiasm. She s also funny as hell. I love that she describes herself as a loud mouth choreographer, performer and host. Sarah is the Artistic Director of Moxie Brawl -  a spicy inclusive dance theatre company who makes work that your mum would love (isn’t that best line ever). 

As a freelance choreographer/movement director she has worked with companies, organisations and artists such as Complicite, Bryony Kimmings, the Royal Opera House, Perth Concert Hall and The Place amongst others. She is currently working with  Dan Daw and Xnthony Ltd.

Together we talked about protecting your own peace, happiness, the love of performing and the sensation of a full on impostor syndrome of a council estate princess. 

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The Art of Faux Pas #7 - Sarah Blanc

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Art of Faux Pas. Here, we celebrate the artistic fuck ups, the feelings of failure, the blackouts, the falls, the unfollowed rules, the invaluable learning experiences within the creative process. All this With kindness, amusement, and respect. 

Today we're chatting with Sarah Blanc. Sarah is an Irish artist based in London. She is simply magnificent. She shines with positivity, passion, and enthusiasm. She's also funny as hell. I love that she describes herself as a loud mouth choreographer, performer, and host. Sarah is the Artistic Director of Moxie Brawl (I think this is the right pronunciation): a spicy, inclusive dance theatre company who makes work that your mum would love. I mean, isn't that the best line ever? 

As a freelance choreographer and movement director, she's worked with companies, [00:01:00] organisations and artists such as Complicité, Bryonny Kimmings, The Royal Opera House, Perth Concert Hall, and The Place amongst others. She's currently working with Dan Daw and Xnthony Ltd.

And if you listen to this in February, her show, Punk Alley, will be on at The Place on the 14th of February, and I think no one should miss that. I hope you'll enjoy this chat as much as I did! 

Léa: Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

Sarah: Thank you, Léa. I'm so excited to be here. Well, be in another country with you. You know, international. 

Léa: Really excited to be chatting with you. Can we start with a little introduction? Tell us your name. What you do, where you're from. 

Sarah: Yes. So my name is Sarah Blanc and I am a performer and choreographer, but that role kind of shifts and changes. And I rehearsal direct, I teach, um, maybe artist is the best. I'm an [00:02:00] artist. I'm an artist with my vocation being in movement. I'm from Waterford in Ireland, and I've been living in London now for… oh my god, 15 years, baby! She's old, but she's fine, you know? She's getting on, she's living life, and she's loving London, so, there you go, that's me. 

Léa: Do you remember what's your first memory of dance?

Sarah: Yes, I was thinking about this, and I think, like, my first memory of dance and seeing movement and being moved by it was probably seeing, like, films like Dirty Dancing, or seeing, um, so in the film with Sarah Jessica Parker the girls just wanted to have fun and they had the dance, um, it was about a dance competition and, and I remember just wanting to be able to be like that and also the fashion and everything.

But I suppose the first time of feeling dance and really being in my body was when I did my first contemporary dance [00:03:00] class with a teacher called Libby Seward and she had come to Waterford and I was part of this Youth club called Waterford Youth Arts and they started doing some dance classes. 

It was contemporary dance and I just remember going ‘whoa this is how I want my body to feel and it was a real cosmic like fluid moving in my body neuro like nervous system like shift and I was I just remember going okay this is how I want to feel every day of my life for the rest of my life’. Thank you very much Yes Amazing. 

Léa: And did you know from an early age that you could make a career in dance that like it could be a profession and you could, you know, it could be a job? 

Sarah: Well, I, no, yes and no. I think I always grew up with that thing of no one can tell me that I can't do anything. And I think my mom was always so, yeah, whatever you want, Sarah, you, you go, my friend, slay away. You know, you just do what you need to do. [00:04:00] And so I never thought that anything was not possible, which I think naivety is just wonderful, isn't it? But I also, I always wanted to be an actress. That was my goal. I was going to be an actress, you know, and I would visualize myself on talk shows and I would like have conversations and I would, I would, you know… I was going to be an actress. And then when I started, I think I was like 15 when I did this dance class. And I remember it shifted everything. I was like, Oh, wait a second, movement. And then I ended up, I didn't get in, I wanted to go to LIPA, which is like acting in LIPA in Liverpool. I didn't get in there, but I got into John Moores university, which is, it's, it's accredited, it’s the same course. Well, it's accredited by the same university, but it was a dance with physical, it wasn't an acting course. It was a dance with physical theatre course. And I was, that was the kind of making of like what. I could do and how I could enter into dance. But I think because of, like, I didn't do [00:05:00] ballet from the age of three, you know, I had, before I did this contemporary class at 15, I had my sister, my brother's friend's mom owned this dance school and I remember pestering my mom for her number and I called her at home going, I want to come and do some dance classes. And I went and did some classes and they were like the typical tap jazz, but that wasn't really my thing. I tried my best because obviously Dirty dancing. I wanted to do that but I remember after I'd been to John Moores University I was like, oh actually dance and movement this is more me and that's when I did further training in dance, but it wasn't until yeah I was like 18, 19 that I was like, okay yes, I can actually do this because this moves me in a way that nothing else in the world does so yeah. 

Léa: And when did you start then your professional training? When and where I would say? 

Sarah: When [00:06:00] and where? I think in John Moores university, I got such good life experience. I moved countries. I had just turned 18. I sometimes think like I moved to a whole other country when I had just turned 18 like a month before and imagine my mum letting me go. I get really emotional when i think about my mum leaving me in my digs in Liverpool. Like, it was such, it was, yeah, I'm like, go younger, Sarah, you're amazing. Um, I've forgotten the question, which was When your professional training started, yeah. So, like, I think being at Liverpool, like, The teachers we had were unreal, like, they really set me up. And then when I, then after that I did two years up in Scottish School of Contemporary Dance and that was, like, ballet contemporary every day, that was, Yeah, really intense. And I remember being in the first week and of my like, of like dance training up in, up in, up in Dundee and being like, Oh my God, I'm doing class every day, but we're not even done a sequence yet and it was a real shift in like, okay, using my body and my body really changed the [00:08:00] muscles.
Like it was a, I, and I was so glad I was, I was 21, 22 then. I remember being in my interview for the job, for that job, for that, uh, uh, course. It'd be like, I'm 21.
I'm so old already. And the, and the, And the person interviewing me was like, don't worry about being 21, you're fine. Anyway, but I, but I'm so glad I was 21,
22 there because I was really able to like, be so laser focused on what I wanted to get out of these two years and understanding my body and, and how this training was going to help me.
And then I did one year at the place, one year cert.
I did one year as a, before I went to the place, I did one year at Scottish Dance Theatre as a, like, kind of an apprentice.

Adam [00:09:00] Benjamin, who was one of the co founders of Candoco, made a piece on Scottish Dance Theatre and I shadowed him for the whole process. And then I went on tour with the company, which was like the most amazing experience. So when I came to London, my laser focus was even more clear. I was like, right, I'm getting in.
My training's going to be tip top. I'm going to leave. I'm going to get a job at Yasmin Vardimon. And I'm going to like ..which it also might look at me if I'm going to turn them down and then I'm going to bust it, you know. Reality obviously set in soon, soon after that, but that was the goal, yeah. 

Léa: After your training, did you go on and audition for people?

Sarah: Yeah, I did, but I'm not good in those situations. Like, I'm really do not shine. And I Yeah, I did. I did. I did. I applied, went to auditions, got a few, didn't get most. Um, and also I think like, with my, you know, I'm a size 16 and I think maybe back then I was maybe 12, [00:10:00] 14. Maybe 14. And, you know, I would be as fit as the next person dancing it, but I might not fit the costumes or I just don't look the part.
And I could see like how different my body was in those instances. So I would, you know, yeah, I don't know, I would always feel out of place already, and I think also come from my background, like I'm a council estate princess. So I'm, I'm coming with like, bucketfuls of imposter syndrome with me.
I don't feel I belong. I, you know, I'm feeling all of this already, which is coming from my, myself. Not anybody around me is making me, but it's my own, like, can I curse on here? 

Léa: Yeah, of course. 

Sarah: It’s my own shit that I'm bringing, you know, so like, I get that and um, but I remember, you know, if you're starting there with already feeling like you don't belong, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot. But I, yeah, I did. The audition thing, but most jobs I got, I'd say like 80 percent of [00:11:00] the work I've got was through word of mouth or people asking me to do things, which has worked quite well for me. She's doing okay. 

Léa: And are you able to articulate today? Why don't? Why dance? 

Sarah: There’s, uh, I remember, like, nothing, when I'm watching performance, there's nothing that touches me more than when I'm seeing a piece that, that I'm, it completely grabs me and grabs my heart and grabs my soul and swirls it around and then puts it back into my body at the end.
There's nothing like it. Like I remember seeing, It was with this youth dance club. We got this grant to go over to Wales for this dance, uh, exchange, um, which was incredible. And I remember seeing for the first time people talking and dancing at the same time. And I remember my heart [00:12:00] exploded. My eyes went wide open.
I was like, that's it, that’s what I want to dom that's what I want to do. Or I remember seeing Liv Lorenz piece on Scottish Dance Theatre at Luxuria and I cried, I watched it so many times, but I cried every time, like, and I still get those goosebumps. And it's annoying that it's because you see so much, I go, I don't see so much, you know, it's a lie, Sarah, stop lying.
But like, I've seen so much over the years that actually I don't get that overwhelming feeling as much, but when I do, like, there's nothing like that. There's nothing! And seeing these bodies move and shift and change, and like, as a dancer, you understand what they're doing, like, the appreciation I have for these people is just, um, unreal.
But, I know that's not really answering the question. I think there's a word for it, apart from there's nothing that moves me like it. And, yeah. And when I'm dancing myself, like, there's just something cosmic inside that, [00:13:00] yeah. Also, it goes hand in hand with performing for me. Like, I love performing. I love being on stage. I love working an audience. I love, you know, bringing them along on a journey. Making them cry and then making them laugh the next second and like there's nothing when that happens, there's nothing like it. 
But I know if that's necessarily dance whether I'm performing, but I'm a show off. Yeah, can't help it. 

Léa: What is your best memory on stage as a dancer or as a witness of your own work? Or/and? 

Sarah: Or/and? Okay Maybe I'll start with a witness first, because that's easier maybe to articulate. So I've made quite a bit of family work throughout the years and the last couple of shows I've managed to [00:14:00] wangle myself into the show, which is not always ideal when you're making, but I can't help it.
Well, whatever, it doesn't matter. It's what we're talking about. Stop apologizing. I'm in my work sometimes. Anyway, um, one of the first shows we made was called Windibops and it was a family show about flatulence and global warming. So there was moments in the show where I would know what's coming or what the performers are about to do.
And I would just, I would just wait for the parents and the kids to react like, and seeing them either be disgusted or laughing their heads off at what the performers are doing. There's nothing..There’s nothing better than seeing people find enjoyment out of something that you have been part of creating.
Um, uh, yeah. Like, in Windibops, for example, we'd always, the performer, Kirsty Green, she's a diamond on stage, she's amazing. She would always pick the youngest kid to come on stage, the smallest kid that put their hand up. And, one of [00:15:00] the performers would pretend to be a cow, and then we'd collect the fart from the from her arse, basically.
And obviously it's really innocent, but what I'm watching is the parents going, what the hell are they doing? And then the kids just laughing at this, you know, at them collecting a fart and putting it into a jar. And then the jar moving around, like, it's just, there's nothing better than that feeling of seeing people enjoying what you're doing.
I think also in the, in terms of my company, Moxie Brawl. That's what I should have said at the beginning is I'm also Artistic Director of Moxie Brawl, which is a Inclusive dance, no, a spicy inclusive dance theatre company who make work that your mum would love is the tagline. 

Léa: I love it!

Sarah: Thank you. Although we're trying, I'm trying to find a new word for inclusive, but that's a whole other conversation, but um so for me, uh, uh, Witnessing also seeing, is hearing people saying that they felt included that they could be themselves as they're watching it because all of our shows [00:16:00] are always relaxed, which means, um, well to us, that means that you can come and go as you please. You can make noise, text him, um, and every show is like that, so the feedback we get when people feel that they can, um, be themselves is wonderful or when they can see themselves on stage, like, for example, we, our latest show has a lot of live music, so we, for people who are neurodiverse, for example, who music might be quite disorientating to them, we have got ear defenders, and one of the performers wears ear defenders, and like, having kids seeing, oh, there's somebody on stage wearing ear defenders, I don't have to be so embarrassed that I'm actually quite sensitive to sound and so being able to see, create that is quite lush. And I suppose, should I keep going? I'm talking loads. 

Léa: It's alright. You talk, I want you to talk! 

Sarah: Oh my god. Am I talking too fast as well by the way? 

Léa: No, I don't think so. 

Sarah: Oh, [00:17:00] okay, fine. Um, and I suppose, Being on stage, favourite moment on stage, I suppose, kind of already spoke about it, but when you can, I've done solo work which kind of blends between like comedy, theatre, dance, dance, when you can like get the audience, usually within like five minutes you know whether you've got them or not and how then you've got to like keep on like moulding them, just get them into the palm of your hand, and then when you're able to take them on a journey, and then like drop in certain things and move emotions and then you go on that journey with them. Well when they're going that journey with you through like, because usually it's autobiographical work, right, that we're making because we're all many narcissists at the end of the day, you know, but we like how you bringing them along on the journey with you… there's nothing like that.
And that's yeah, I I'll never ever take that for granted of you know, that feeling, um, [00:18:00] of being on stage and connecting with an audience in that way. And it doesn't always happen, sometimes there's shows where you're like, giving your soul, telling them everything, and you can clearly tell that it's not the day. There's nothing, there's nothing happening here, but you get through the show and you finish it and go home and cry. And that's okay, because that's life, isn't it? 

Léa: It’s life. Well I guess it leads us to the worst memory. Worst memory of you on stage as a dancer, or a witness of your own work, or a dancer of your own work.

Sarah: Yeah, um, it's hard, there's been times, I think for me, I don't enjoy being, when I don't know why I'm on stage, and why I'm doing what I'm doing, and if it doesn't feel like it's doing something. This might sound really self righteous, but if it doesn't feel like it's doing something for the world, or it's saying something [00:19:00] about the world, or if it's not trying to connect with somebody on more of a level that's just, I want to entertain you with my good moves.
Um, you know, I'm not, it, then I know in my heart I'm on stage, I'm like, this is not for me, I know this is not doing anything for anybody. And, and sometimes you get yourself into contracts, because you need to. And you're there going, Oh, what am I doing with my life? You know, um, but you're also like, but also what's good about those moments is it clarifies what you want to do and your next steps and you're starting to work out your boundaries.
And I said, I'm really happy that in the last, probably like 10 years or so, choreographers I've worked with, or the work I've made, has always been within that realm of, I know why I'm there, or I [00:20:00] know why I'm dancing in this place, or I know why this certain demographic of audience are watching me.
You know, there's like a, there's a reason for us being there. Yeah, I think that's, when you have those feelings on stage, and you're like, oh this is not, this is not doing anything for anybody, yeah. Mmh. 

Léa: Yes mmm. A faux pas is « a socially embarrassing action or mistake ». What's your definition of failure and has it changed over time?

Sarah: It has 100 percent changed over time. I think, well, I think like right now, right now, I kind of don't really believe in failure-failure, because with every failure comes a new discovery. Um, and like. I think life is a whole, it's a whole bundle of like [00:21:00] failures and finding ways out of things and like, um, problems become solutions become… I've been told quite a few times, it's really good to say you're a solutions based. I'm like, Oh, I really liked that that's my feedback that you've given me because that feels good. I want to be that person. I think there's also something in me that I don't ever want to admit I failed at that because I want to find a good thing out of it.
I don't know if that's healthy or that's a coping mechanism or it's because, again, because my background that I really want to make, well, like, I can't fail because if I fail then, yeah, I can't fail. If I fail, I've got no money behind me to be able to pick me up. So I have to make this work. And I'm now, like, yeah, 15 years, well, I graduated in 2008, so that's, I don't know how many years that is. That's 15 years, nearly 14 years of work. You know, I, yeah, I'm 15 years in, I can't fail. And if I do, I need to move on. But yeah, I feel [00:22:00] like I can't, I, I'm not yet ready to be like, I failed. But, um, you know, when I first started, I think success was like, you know, getting into a company, but actually for me, it was just getting into a company.
I was so never, like, money minded. Only recently have I started to be like, I need, like, money is more important, and I think that comes with age, maybe, or, but I've never been someone that's like, I want to buy a house, I want to da da da. My main goal is where I want to, well, for first of all, like, get a job, pay my rent, be an artist, with the things I live by. And then, Maybe like five years in, I was like, and actually I'd like to go on a holiday every year. So I started to achieve that a little bit. And then over the last maybe four or five years, I'm like, I'd actually like to buy a house. Maybe a bit late to start thinking about that. But, um, you know, I'm going around in circles here, but lots of stuff.
But like, I think when you're thinking about failure, thinking about what success was, it was like getting in, working, being an artist. So if [00:23:00] you like, I'm doing that. And I also feel like failure for me is when I, if I continue to do something that I'm not enjoying. Like I've always said that as soon as I stop enjoying what I'm doing, I'm going to get out and do something different.
But like, I love what I do and I feel so grateful for that I'm able to be here. And I feel so grateful every time I'm in a space, like I'm always, and I really hope I never lose that because there's something I never want to take for granted that I'm invited in somewhere or someone invites me into their creative, creative space.
Like what a privilege to be invited into somebody else's world. And you know, for organizations supporting me, I always want to feel grateful and I always will be, I think. So I, as soon as I stop enjoying it or take it for granted, I think it's time. Move on. Go get another job, Sarah. But right now, I'm very fine.
I'm happy. 

Léa: How would you define success today? [00:24:00] 

Sarah: Ahem. Well, uh, God, this is so cheesy, but for me, it's about being happy. Happy's such a shit word. And I don't want to use the word content. I used to say content, but that's such a sad word. I want to feel, you know, success for me is about if I'm happy, healthy, and I've got good people around me.
is success. You know, I never, for me, failure then would be opposite of like having bad people around me, you know, having a good network, good, and I mean like friends network, not like work network, good friends and feeling happy with what I'm doing and happy with the decisions I'm making morally, ethically, that I'm not doing anything that's going against my grain or going against my instinct, which sometimes you have to sometimes push through going through, [00:25:00] past your instinct to either to learn something or to realize that you were just scared, or you were too nervous, or you were, you didn't want to take that leap because it was too scary, um, yeah, I think. I know that's a really lame answer. Oh. Like, because, because then there is parts of me, like, as I said, you know, I'd love to buy a house one day, so like, success, you know, then it's, it's also about knowing my worth, and that, and I do mean that monetarily, and I also mean that, um, in how I want to be treated and setting up my boundaries.
So if I can continue to, yeah, keep learning what my boundaries are and be okay with them shifting, then I think I'm, I'm successful in my way. But yeah, but also, you know, I thought it'd be bloody like one of the goals I have this year is to start, I thought I'd get some more work in film or like things like that.
Like I do have like, with all the [00:26:00] flowery stuff, I've got set goals. Like I'm very like set my goals for the year. I know, okay, I want to start doing that. I, you know, but for me, the real success is health, happiness, good network of people, which is a bit flowery, but yeah. 

Léa: But it is so important and essential.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, for me and my mental health, if I start being like, I need to earn this amount of money by this year, I ain't going to be, then if people who do that, they've got houses and they can go and do five holidays a year, you know, but whatever I'm not there yet. Maybe next year, maybe I've had this conversation a few months or next year or two years it may have changed but right now that's where I'm at.

Léa: Do you recall of any massive creative or artistic fuck up? Either something you made, a project you were a part of, a piece you [00:27:00] performed in, a task you responded to, something that just really went wrong?

Sarah: I think when I look back - I’m neurodiverse myself, so, and that's only kind of been like a recent kind of discovery of how my brain works - and I've always seemed to always hung around in the disabled community or within the queer community because I feel like we're just a bunch of outcasts and we actually we are like a, you know, a bunch of failures doing well in terms of what society says, right? So we're like, we're like always finding solutions. We're always making things work in a different way. Um, so when I was starting, I was, I was always working with disabled performers. And I think back when I was starting, um, I didn't know what questions to ask in order to make the space really, like, [00:28:00] the most amazing space or comfortable space for people to be in. So if I think back on some of the stuff, some of the processes I've created and I think, and I think I'm okay with it because at that time I didn't have the experience to know what those questions were to ask in order to make sure everyone felt that they could ask what they wanted, you know. So I'm really enjoying in the last, you know, uh, last few shows we've made that we're able to ask those questions or we're learning or we are able to make the space a really gorgeous place to set up for people to work in because it's all about, you know, um, it's about creating a nice environment that people can thrive, feel safe, can feel safe that they can not complain, but they can, well, they can complain. That’s a crass word for it, but like they can speak their truth and we can handle it without feeling crushed that we're really bad people, you know? Um, and that's taken years. Like our first show we made was like, yeah, 10 years ago. Windibops [00:29:00] and you know, if I look back on rehearsals, I'd love to have changed some stuff.

So there's some things that I would like to have changed. Um, but I can't be angry at myself, I didn't have the experience then. But, um, in other, like, I'm sure there's like, been. Oh god, I've tried, the amount of applications I've put in for random shows I've just pulled out of my head and then you're like, oh here's your, here's some seed funding and then all of a sudden you're like, oh sugar, I've got to make this show now and you're like, this is not feeling like it's doing anything.

Those kind of moments earlier on where you're just taking anything which you, I think you should do so you learn all these things. Um, yeah, but I'm sure, I'm sure there are, I think at the beginning as well, I wasn't so good at taking feedback or you find a lot, especially, and I'm going to gender this, but being a female choreographer, but people would feel like [00:30:00] they can just tell you what they need, what you need to hear, what they think. And I, yeah..

Léa: I’m like 300 percent with you on this one!! 

Sarah: And like, maybe not so much in the last few years, maybe, but I remember not being able to take the feedback and take it so personally. And then I remember working with Bryony Kimmings and her giving me this framework of how to ask for feedback and to set the boundaries up.
And I remember a performer would bring, brought their partner in who was, also a performer and they just decided just to tell me what they thought. And then from that point, the performer then would tell me, oh, you're not very good at taking feedback. And I, and at the time, I was, and then I was, and then I, like I ruminated on that because, you know, I took it personally.
Like, right, why am I, why did that hurt so much? Okay, what, and I started to unblock it around for myself. Like, no, actually, I just wasn't ready to take feedback yet. So I always take feedback on my terms. Like, I only Ask for [00:31:00] feedback when the show is at a certain point. I will first do it in writing. Um, if I want really specific feedback, I bring in people that I trust that are going to be really honest with me.
And we set it up in a really safe place. And the more I learn also about my brain and how my brain works, and it's probably down to my neurodiversity, is that I, taking feedback makes, is actually quite a hard thing for some people. And I think it is for everybody. But it's worse for me. I'm the worst, but I'm joking.
Um, but it was, that was a really good thing to learn but not nice to hear. Um, but yeah, when people are able to like, just, uh, just so you know, this is what you need to do or whatever. Yeah. I don't mind people give me feedback, if they ask me, do I want first? Yeah. Yeah. And I'll go yes or no, whatever. 

Léa: What’s the worst thing someone's ever said to you either about your work or about one of your [00:32:00] your own performances? 

Sarah: I remember somebody - this is when I'd done just done my first solo show, it was called ‘it starts Jason Donovan’ and I did it at Resolution, big up Resolution. I love Resolution, I was just thinking about the amount of stuff I did. I did about like eight Resolution pieces. Anyway, um, and I remember there was an organisation that wanted to help develop the show further. I think they thought it was going to be helpful, but they're like, if it's going to be any dance, just make sure that it's good dance in the show.
It's like, what does that even mean? You do it to your best ability because the show basically, it was a, um, what was it? It was like a presentation and the premise is that all the audience were there for some dating advice. And I went through from my very first crush to where I was at that time. And so there was like maybe four [00:33:00] dance sections and each dance section represented like when I was doing my disco, I didn't ever do disco dancing, but my kiddie dancing, you know, so very cheesy, lyrical. And then it would, it was like, went into when I was a bit older in university, so my serious contemporary.
And then I went into, when I moved to London, I was out clubbing and then, you know, then I went into my really serious jazz number when I met my first love, you know, so it was never I think basically what they were trying to tell me was just go deeper in the movement, but they just said in such a clumsy way that they just feel like, Oh, you think I'm just shit dancer, but also it's like, do you actually get what I was trying to do? I'm trying to be funny, but, um, yeah, the question was about work, right? Cause I've got, I've had other advice I've been given that was, 

Léa: I mean, you go for it. Share! Like the worst things that they're not necessarily related to work, but it could also yeah, be you as an artist or..

Sarah: Yeah, I remember, um, uh, [00:34:00] I've been told like, I’ve said this in a show before, so it's like not, but like that I was getting advice from somebody and I was, you know, just starting out and they're like, well, the industry is not changing enough at the moment, so you're going to have to lose weight.
Um, so how about every time that you feel hungry, just brush your teeth. 

Léa: What? No! 

Sarah: Like, like, yeah, like 15 years ago, I just think, 15 years ago, I just think, you know what could have been great is if you'd said, go out and change the fucking dance scene. And, you know, use your body, be political with it.
Yeah. Like, you know, you know, speak to where you need to be. And, you know, obviously it just did the opposite. It just made me. You know, not appreciate what my gorgeous, my gorgeous body could do, like, she was beautiful. I still am. 

Léa: She is, yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, [00:35:00] like, like, my body is strong, my body's got me through so much, my body holds, you know, and whatever. But obviously at the time I was like, yeah, okay, of course, yeah, okay, yeah, you're right, yeah. I can do that. Ugh. The other thing is when I hear, like, I remember this one, I was at this, um, uh, remember Dance UK used to do, yeah, it used to be called Dance UK, it's now One Dance UK. They used to do these student days where people who were just about to graduate could go and have, like, a grad this is probably maybe before you moved to London, and, um, I remember hearing this choreographer, you know, say to this group third years, say, if you don't eat, breathe, think, dream about dance, then this is not for you. You've got to get up and always, and I remember just, and I, I had only graduated like maybe two years after that. At that [00:36:00] time I'd set up this Inside Dance TV, which is like an online dance platform.
And so we were up there kind of doing some footage of the event and, um, I remember hearing that going, Oh God, how boring! Like, you know, like, you need to get up and be really inspired about something else that's happening in the world. Like, you need to be reading books. You need to be like, not thinking about dance and like, and this comes from me, I felt like, probably like yourself, I've got like 15 shows in my head, maybe not 15, but I've got loads of like, I'm always seeing things going, Oh, that'd be cool, or reading something going, Ah, that's really important.
Like you know, my brain is always going, but to give that advice to someone so young, I just thought that's so unhealthy because they're going to think that they can't be an artist unless they are bleeding work, and actually, you need life experience and you know, whatever. I just felt that really, that kind of like that rigor that [00:37:00] you've, I mean, the rigor is important, but like that kind of like work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work is not healthy.
Yeah. So I'm liking how the industry's shifting and changing, especially with like people addressing ableism within the dance world and, you know, looking at rest and I'm really enjoying how it's in the direction it's moving. We’re not there yet, but I really, I'm enjoying how that's, you know, yeah, how that's shifting.

Léa: What’s the best feedback someone's ever said to you about your work or you as a dancer?

Sarah: The best feedback, I think, the best feedback I can ever receive is when people say that they're connected to the work, or that it's moved them in a certain way, or it's made them think about certain things. Our latest show, Moxie Brawl's show, Punk Alley, which is, um, it's a call to action, and it's a show for young people and their parents to say [00:38:00] that no matter how quiet, how small, how young you are, your voice is important, and it's also to celebrate that these young people are going to be you know, the voice and they're going to have to be like how the world is going, these young people are going to have to be foragers, they're going to have to be warriors, they're going to have to really build the world that's crashing amongst us, right?
It's a, it's a world about giving, it's a show about giving voice to young people. And, um, we did the, we did a set of shows at Southbank Centre and they are amazing, like, sending back feedback and stuff. And one person apparently wrote to them saying, ‘me and my nine and ten year old daughters had a conversation after the show on the way home all about power, who holds power’ and like so, for me like being able to create that discourse that people are able to like and go away and start thinking that's for me…That’s really cool. And that's good feedback [00:39:00] Um, yeah, yeah, that's, and I think we can move people with what we're doing or make them think is the best kind of feedback I think we can receive. And again, I think I've said it already, but I think in terms of access, you know, we want to create a space where everyone feels welcome and if we can achieve that, and it doesn't, you know, you can't make a space where everyone feels welcome, but we try our best.
Um, and so. When we feel like we've achieved that, it's lush, yeah. 

Léa: Is there a most inspiring quote or advice you keep close to your heart and that might help you keep going?
Sarah: The quote I live by is always, if you don't ask, you don't get. So like, I, and I'm, at the moment, I mean, the whole industry is shifting so much. The moment funding is disappearing, it [00:40:00] feels like, It feels, it's not impossible, but it's feeling nearer and nearer impossible to keep things going. Um, so at the moment I'm kind of reliving my 21 year old self where I'm cold emailing everyone. I'm like going, Hi! Da da da, and I'm introducing myself again to people. And there's, what am I gonna, I used to be terrified I think for a few years I can't do that now, it's too embarrassing. I was like, but now I'm like Life is way too short. Who cares? Because I get emails from young artists, you know, wanting for chats and that's so lush and, I will never, I mean, there's a few emails I've not got to which I still wake up, I still wake up about, but like the, the, so maybe what I'm saying is really fake, but it's not fake, but I really appreciate those calls.
I never get those emails and go, what an idiot. No way. Um, it's never like that. ever. So I thought Sarah, adopt that for yourself. And if you get something back, you get something back. If not, [00:41:00] You've not. You've put something out of the ether. Um, um, there's also a quote. I went through a bit of like a, um, a tricky time a few years ago with the dance company.
And there was this one quote that came to me on Instagram. It's really, it's really cheesy. But I'm, I thought I might as well share it. But I didn't save it here. But it's by Rupi Kaur, who's like a poet. Um, and I just, I remember just, this quote just came, this poem came to me and I remember going that's exactly how I feel and I've even gone so much into like, I want to get that tattooed on myself.
I love myself. Anyway, the poem is, ‘let it go, let it leave, let it happen. Nothing in this world was promised or belonged to you anyway, all you own is yourself.’ Yeah, and I know it's really dead cheesy, but I think at that time there was a point where I felt ..wait a second. I've given you a lot actually and you're treating [00:42:00] me like this. And then there was, there was something in the power in that of like owning all you can give and not, and not owning what they're doing to you, like you can only do what you can do.

And also to learning a big lesson that time of to not assume that because of how you're treating someone is how you're going to get treated back. So to always protect your boundaries, protect yourself, so that if this ever happens again, you're never going to fall as hard as you fell.
But I just remember that poem, I would just, I would just recite it to myself like every day. And I know it's so cheesy, but it just really helped me at that time. So sometimes I go back to that even yeah, I want to get tattooed on me I but I'll do it in like a weird way so that no one knows it's let it go.
Let it go. But whatever it's all right. 

Léa: Maybe it's kind of the same but what's your biggest learning [00:43:00] experience as an artist? 

Sarah: Yeah, I think it's from that experience of like I'm a really positive person and I love that about myself. I used to get annoyed at it by myself because it annoys people that sometimes I'm this jolly, um, or that I'm quite positive. I see the positives in everything. But, it was, I think what I learned was protecting my own peace and protecting myself. And it's only dance. You know? It like, health, friendships, happiness is much more important than anything else. So protect your peace, protect your happiness, protect your health.

It's important. So I suppose, um, that incident that happened with the dance company was a major thing for me. But slightly before that, I was part of this kind of artists, um, meet up. I was selected and we had [00:44:00] different meetings throughout the year and it was really great and then part of this whole organization there was also a showcase that you could apply to and I'd applied probably like every other artists had applied and during the kind of meet ups, questions would come up to the director like ‘Have people been selected yet’?
And they'd be like, ‘no, no, nothing's been selected.’ I was like, okay, fine, fine. But then we were, me and my producer were staying in an Airbnb with another artist and their producer. And when they were having dinner, well, they were having kind of dinner and talking and I was like, what are you talking about?
And they, they looked kind of bit uneasy. And then they're like, well, they've just asked us what, when we, what day we'd like our get in to be for the showcase, because they want us as part of the showcase. And I remember like the whole rosy tinted glasses of like what the dance world was kind of just shattered in that moment.
Because up to that point, I thought everyone's really honest. Everyone's transparent. Everyone's supporting each other. Everyone's in it [00:45:00] together. And it was such a good lesson to learn that it's not, and it made me just harden up a bit and be like, and I, I don't ever want to be cynical and I'm not going to be because we know a lot of artists are just cynical, don’t believe that anything, no one's going to believe them or, you know, whatever. I'll never be like that. But it was such a good, a good lesson to learn. Just to harden up and to be out, not be out for yourself, but to really look after yourself in the, in the industry that don't believe everything you hear, don't, like, really be.
You know, get that contract signed, really push things like, yeah, so it was, it was really just, it was a really disappointing moment. And I remember phoning up one of the other artists I was working with just being like, Oh, I can't believe this has happened. They're like, yeah, Sarah, come on. Why are you so naive?
And I was like, Oh, it was so nice being in, it was such a beautiful place being so naive and believing that everyone, but you know, that people, you know. They are giving hand ups to [00:46:00] other people around you, and the people do have favourites, and I'm sure I'm the favourite to some people as well, and I've definitely had amazing opportunities, you know, given to me, and so I can't, you know, I'm part of the system too, but I remember just that moment being shattered! The dance world was not as, not as I thought. Yeah. But it was a really good learning lesson. Positive. See, I'm annoying. I'm annoyingly positive. 

Léa: No, we need positivity in this world. Um, I think there's just one question we sort of like, not missed, but like, I didn't ask because we sort of like, we're on a, on a nice wave.
But, um, do you remember of any faux pas on stage? Any blank, any falls? 

Sarah: Oh my God. Yes. So many. So I was, I've worked with Made by Katie Green, the artist Katie Green, who's just so lush. And I was part of a show called the Imagination Museum for like, I think we, I performed the show for like six years on and [00:47:00] off and, um, and how that show works, so basically we would go to different museums across the country and we'd have different sections that get molded to whatever the space we're in. Um, and I love it. I really enjoyed it. But, that meant it was a different show in every space. And It also meant that we did maybe three shows a day because it was like a 40 minute show and it was for families.
So you're doing, you're going to a new venue and sometimes you do new venues like every two, two days. So you are like, remembering a show but then you gotta completely thrashed it out, build a whole new show and then you're repeating it three times, but then as you're repeating it, you're like, wait a second, have I just done that bit?
And I remember we were in this, we were in this museum. I don't know somewhere like Milton Keynes or something. And I remember I was [00:48:00] dancing and I could not remember the move and I, I started dancing. It was a wrong thing. I was, so I stopped and did like dramatical pause and breathed into the movement, looked at the other dancers and then I try again and I remember three times I tried and then I just, I just stop and pause.
And like Katie said that she was just watching me, like, like not cringing, but crumbling going, ‘she’s just giving up, she's just going to give up. Just give up, Sarah. Just give up.’ I was mortifying. Also in that, in another tour of that show, I, we were dancing in this church and, I fell twice in, in the same show and what happened? And then I started laughing, which I hate. I started laughing. I, I couldn't, I couldn't believe. And then the other performer, Megan Griffiths started laughing and you know, and get Megan laughing. It's just, we had to turn our backs and like, it was, I remember just being on God, I'm so unprofessional, but I couldn't believe I'd fallen twice.

Léa: But was it the floor? 

Sarah: Maybe? I mean,[00:49:00] The first one, sorry. 
Léa: It’s marble, no? I don't know, I imagined like a marble floor. 

Sarah: Friend, this is carpets. I think I came over and I was basically doing this like, arm, like a big like circle on my arm, down to pull over, and then, I just fell right in front of Megan and she's like, kind of like just hopped over me in her lovely like ballet trained way. And I was just like, what the hell? And then I moved on, circling, moving, and then I fell again. And it was just, I don't know what happened to me. I mean, every month. I get so clumsy just before one comes on and so, like, it could have been the moon, it could have been whatever, I don't know, but it was embarrassing.
I've also sprained a calf and then kept on moving. I've done, yeah, so many things. I've, I've blanked. I was in, um, recently I did choreography on a musical and then I was also [00:50:00] swing when we're on tour and I went on stage and it's just me and I'm singing this song. I'm the mother and I'm singing this song to the son and then I go off piste and I, I'm getting the meaning of the words right, but it's a really wordy song. Like it's, there's no like verse, chorus, verse, chorus. It goes in that structure, but there's different words for everything. And I remember, and I went off piste and then Anthony looked at me with a little like, ‘Oh, she's going off’. And then I found myself back in, but like those, that's what I love about live theatre though, like those things. But when I sprayed my calf it was in Nutcracker, we had a Christmas show, the Nutcracker and it was in the first five minutes of the show and I just did this, this kick and I came down and I could feel it. And it, and I remember I just carried on for a moment, then I had to stop the show and be like, I'll be back in a minute. So I got all the performers off stage and I was like, what do I do? And it was like the 20, it was something like. It was a Saturday, the Saturday before Christmas, [00:51:00] and it was a full house. There was like 300 people there, and I was just like, I can't let all of these children's Christmases. So I went back on stage, but I was limping, and I had to just be like, just so you know, I'm fine. I lied and said, this is an old injury. Um, I know how this feels. I'm not in pain, I promise. 

Léa: To the audience?

Sarah: To the audience, I said that. Just so that they would feel comfortable with me limping on stage. After seeing me not limping, you know. So, yeah, that was, that was a moment. And yeah, I do wish I could have had the power to say no I'm not going back on, but I couldn't let the audience down, or again, I couldn't admit to failure, like, was that, was that a failure, was that like, you know, was my body failing me, I couldn't, I couldn't let my body failed me, especially when I've been told my whole life, your body is not good enough to [00:52:00] be on this stage.
Like, I couldn't, there's something in that I was like, no, I'm going to fucking persevere and show you that I can do that. And then of course, it's take, it took months for my calf to get back. Luckily, my long time collaborator Anwar Russell was in, noting us on that show that day, so, and he's a massage therapist.
He had newly just done his sports massage training, so one was able to get it looked at and he taped it up really beautifully and he taught the other dancers how to tape it up for me. So like, I was, uh, you know. Luckily within us team, we were able to like sort it out and, but I do wish I could have stood in my power and be like, no, I'm not going back on because actually what my body needed was to rest.
And obviously I was stressed. I, you know, I was artistic director of the company. I was, I, we didn't get our, we had the commission from Cambridge Junction, but we hadn't got our Arts Council funding. So therefore I'd put myself in the main role because that meant I [00:53:00] could rehearse longer than getting other people in, you know, so. Then you don't have everybody around you. So it's also like the support, emotional support, the choreographer, the carer, the everything, which is not how I run my company at all, but because of circumstances and everyone was okay with it. But, you know, I would never have said that all to them, but of course I was holding all of that.
So of course my body was like, you need to just stop for an afternoon and go and sleep, you know. But like, it just came out in me like that. But then my defiant little spirit was like, no! You get back on that stage, girl, and you show them what you're made of. And I did. And my heel was able to touch the floor by the end of the show, so.
You know, I was on my toes. Yes, it was serious. Yeah, the bruising was wild. But the thing is, the bruising came out in a smiley face. 

Léa: Really? 

Sarah: The next day. Yeah! I was like, bloody hell. Bloody hell world. Leave me alone. [00:54:00] Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. Wild. Um, yeah. Are they faux pas? I think they're faux pas. Yeah.
But I've, yeah. So many. Yeah. 

Léa: I think you have another very precious advice to any young or emerging artists? 

Sarah: So yes, my advice for young emerging artists would be, I think when you're starting out, just to say yes to different projects, even if it's not within the dance world, say yes if you don't know who you're gonna meet.
One of the first projects I did when I graduated was a show called You me Bum Bum Train and it comes with its own controversies with who it works with, it works with a lot of volunteers, but by saying yes and going and being involved in that, I've met all of my best friends in London, I've created my circle.
And then from that I've got other work and things have come out of it. Because you just don't know who you're gonna meet, you don't know who's who, [00:55:00] you know, and also the same thing of like your people that you're training with are the people who are going to hire you as you grow. They're your colleagues who are going to get you inside, you know, going to be get you inside buildings because they're the new producers as exec directors so, you know keep in contact with your people and support the people as you go because that's really going to help and then last thing I want to say is to have friends outside of the dance world because otherwise what you're living in is just a utopia, a utopian world, and comparisons, whether you pretend that you're not comparing yourself or not, you're going to.
But if you have, if you can have friends outside the dance world around you, you honestly will have much, a much healthier relationship to dance. So that'd be my few little bits of advices. Yeah, hopefully they're helpful. 

Léa: Yeah, they're great. Before we move on to the quick fire questions, is there anything you want to add about all these [00:56:00] topics?

Sarah: Is there anything I want to add? Let me just um..is there anything I want to add? I suppose not really, um, I suppose thinking about like if anyone's listening to this and they're like, uh, you know, they feel, they come from my background or they're maybe they're, they are, you know, have a disability or they're feeling like they don't fit in, I think, you know, my main advice is to you is to just keep, to keep on going, that you, your voice is important.
And even though sometimes you just, you just want to dance and not have to always be political, but it's also not to scare away from, um, being in that space and showing who you are, I feel, is really important. And always to, and always ask, and always set your boundaries. I think that's what's so great about the younger generation coming through training right now, is they're getting so much clearer in knowing their boundaries.

And it's so helpful as a [00:57:00] choreographer, as a maker, as someone who holds space, when people know what they need and what they want, and that takes confidence and not everyone can do that. So it's also, responsibility is also on us holding a space to ask those questions, but to not be scared if those questions are asked of you to say what you need.
And, uh, yeah, I think that is. And also, yeah, keep going, persevere. Yeah. Yeah. 

Léa: Yeah. Shall we persevere in our quick fire questions? 

Sarah: Quick fire questions, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Léa: So you know the, you know the game, right? I'm going to ask you a few things and then as quickly as possible you react and you respond without thinking too much about it.

Sarah: Okay. Lovely. Nice. I'm dancing along with this. 

Léa: Process, product or ideas? 

Sarah: Oh, [00:58:00] ideas. 

Léa: Instinct, intuition, or checked facts. 

Sarah: I changed it. Process. Sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Can you say the next one again? I didn't hear. 

Léa: Instinct, intuition, or checked facts. 

Sarah: Instinct. 

Léa: Reflection or impulse? 

Sarah: Well, I'm impulsive, so I have to say impulse, but really, reflection.
Also, the other one, checked facts is really important if it's about important things, so that's a bit of a separate thing, I feel. You can't really put that with instinct, because your instinct might be right, but it can also be wrong, and you need to know your facts. You need to educate yourself. Sorry, I'm breaking the rules, but 

Léa: No, no, no, no, you're right.You're very right! Success or failure? 

Sarah: Failure. 

Léa: Stage or site specific?[00:59:00] 

Sarah: Oh god, I'll say stage. I don't know why, because site specific is such a weird thing as well, but I'm also interested in like, in breaking down the boundaries and, breaking down the boundaries, breaking down barriers of bringing performance to people who wouldn't come into a theatre. So I'd say stage, but stage could be anywhere, okay? 

Léa: Yeah, good one. Art. Useless or useful? 

Sarah: Useful. 

Léa: Pilates, yoga, or ballet? 

Sarah: Oh, I love yoga. I love yoga. It's my daily stretch, but I also love a bit of Pilates, but yeah.. 

Léa: When creating music on or off? 

Sarah: On 

Léa: If you weren't an artist, what job would you do? 

Sarah: Oh my gosh. [01:00:00] What would I do? I would, maybe work in TV or something or like I would still be within the showing off part but I'd probably work, yeah, be like a producer or something, you know.

Léa: Yeah, yeah. Step on the right or step on the left. 

Sarah: Right. 

Léa: The right step or a mistake?

Sarah: Mistake. It's more interesting, right? 

Léa: Yes. That's it. 

Sarah: That’s it? 

Léa: That was it, yeah. 

Sarah: I make trick questions and I end up being judged or something. I feel like, I hope I answered them right. I was like, oh god. Yeah. 

Léa: There's no, again, you know, it's all interesting. It's all interesting. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sarah. So inspiring. 

Sarah: Oh, thank you. You're inspiring. I'm your biggest fan. I am. You know I am. Your work is incredible. Thank you so much for having me. It's really good to chat through these things. It's [01:01:00] been great. Um, yes, um, I look forward to listening to it and thanks much for having me

Léa: ok we say a fake goodbye, and then we chat after that, okay?

Sarah: Bye! See you later! 

BONUS 
Is there a super inspiring quote or an advice that you could …. start again as well? Um, got it. My introduction is always very stressful, so I might have to start like five times. So, okay, baby got this. Bam, bam.
Can you hear me? [01:02:00] I can hear you. Yeah, you can hear me. Why can't I hear you audio? Ah, I know macbook. Yeah, I can hear you now.